A123 Systems Battery News and Discussion

[Herm]

A 200hp Voltec drivetrain would also be handy for the Cadillac Converj.. the LG cells cant power that, good fit for the A123 cells.

 

[Herm]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/08/phostech-20110819.html

"Despite a decision delivered on 17 August 2011 by the Canadian Federal Court of Appeal that a process used by Phostech Lithium to manufacture the P1 grade of lithium iron phosphate (LFP) at its St-Bruno plant violated a patent of Valence Technology Inc., the company said that there is no significant impact on its business."

 

[edatoakrun]

(Reuters)

- Lithium-ion battery maker A123 Systems Inc (AONE.O) said on Wednesday there was "substantial doubt" about its viability because the company expects to burn through cash and report steep losses over the next several quarters.The disclosure illustrates the sharp reversal of A123's fortunes since 2009, when the Obama administration granted it $249 million as part of a program to spur battery development. That year, the company also went public and its stock rose 50 percent during its first day of trading on the Nasdaq.

A123, which has contracts to make batteries for Fisker Automotive, General Motors Co (GM.N) and BMW (BMWG.DE), said it was looking to raise additional cash and is exploring "other strategic alternatives." A123 said in a regulatory filing that it could tap the capital markets for funds.

"There is no assurance that the company will be able to obtain such financing on favorable terms, if at all, or to successfully further reduce costs in such a way that would continue to allow the company to operate its business," A123 said in the filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

The losses stem from A123's recall of defective batteries built at its Livonia, Michigan, plant. The flaw came to light earlier this year when a Fisker Karma plug-in hybrid with an A123 battery failed during a test by Consumer Reports magazine.

The repairs will cost nearly $67 million and force A123 to rebuild its inventory. A123 makes the battery for the Fisker Karma, the BMW hybrid 3- and 5-Series cars and GM's all-electric Chevy Spark due in 2013.

A123, which developed as a start-up at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, BMW and Fisker could not be immediately reached for comment.

"We are aware of the filing and we continue to work closely with A-123 Systems as we do with all of our suppliers," GM said in a statement. "Our plans for the Chevrolet Spark remain unchanged."...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/30/us-a123-goingconcern-idUSBRE84T1LE20120530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

Lithium-ion battery maker A123 Systems Inc (AONE.O) said on Wednesday there was "substantial doubt" about its viability ......

"We are aware of the filing and we continue to work closely with A-123 Systems as we do with all of our suppliers," GM said in a statement. "Our plans for the Chevrolet Spark remain unchanged."..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/30/us-a123-goingconcern-idUSBRE84T1LE20120530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Classic GM.

No batteries and no infrastructure... plans unchanged. Obviously, they MUST produce the Spark, with or without a Frankenplug and with or without A123. Otherwise, they won't be selling cars in California.

Don't worry, we'll bail 'em out again.

Or maybe Nissan can bail them out. Just stick GM Spark stickers on LEAFs, and sell them at California dealers. I wonder if that meets the CARB requirement?

 

[muus]

Worst case scenario, they can always buy EV credits from Nissan and Tesla. That's what Honda has done in the past.

 

[edatoakrun]

The financial press seems to be taking this story seriously.

No Idea how significant this "breakthrough" is, myself, or if it's just a Hail Mary pass by a company about to be taken down by it's creditors.

Anyway, maybe the Spark EVs (both of them) will have passively cooled battery packs.

Shaky Battery Maker Claims a Breakthrough

...On Tuesday, A123 Systems will unveil a new battery technology that the company says is a breakthrough in the industry.

The advance uses a new chemistry that could permit the creation of a simpler, lighter, longer-lasting battery pack that does not require a system to cool or heat it.

The success or failure of the new technology may well determine the fate of A123...

A123 is now hoping that the new technology it is unveiling Tuesday, called Nanophosphate EXT, will help it enter new markets. The company says the new electrolyte chemistry eliminates the need for heating and cooling in extreme temperatures. That would avoid the addition of costly and heavy temperature-management equipment and prolong the life of the battery...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/business/energy-environment/a123-us-backed-battery-maker-claims-breakthrough.html?_r=1&hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[KJD]

The headline says New Cell performs fine in high and low temperatures.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076872_a123-new-li-ion-cell-performs-fine-in-high-low-temperatures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would be interesting to see how these cells hold up after a couple of years in the AZ heat.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

That bring back the question what is optimal temp for Leaf battery? Desperately searching for answer

 

[SanDust]

That bring back the question what is optimal temp for Leaf battery? Desperately searching for answer

While there is an optimal temperature for performance, which is probably around 72F, there isn't really an optimal temperature for battery degradation. Heat accelerates degradation so generally colder is better. 45F would be better than 75F but 75F won't be a problem. What you want to avoid is a heat soak in 100F like what you'd see in AZ. This short answer is that if you're in the Pacific NW you don't need to worry about it.

Another story about the new A123 batteries, with an emphasis on the DOE investments. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/business/energy-environment/a123-us-backed-battery-maker-claims-breakthrough.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The big market for batteries with this new technology will be 12v batteries if the cold temperature performance holds up. For traction pack applications the big problem for the A123 packs remains energy density.

 

[Herm]

That article is mostly about A123 12V batteries replacing standard lead-acid batteries in micro-hybrid start-stop applications. The chemistry changes are minor on the standard A123 uses.

I still think it would be a good BEV battery for AZ, if you dont mind a bit of extra weight. Did A123 ever release the energy density of their BEV grade cells?

 

[SanDust]

No Idea how significant this "breakthrough" is, myself, or if it's just a Hail Mary pass by a company about to be taken down by it's creditors.

Anyway, maybe the Spark EVs (both of them) will have passively cooled battery packs.

Big deal for 12v battery packs. You could have a much lighter weight 12v battery that lasted the lifetime of the car.

I don't think the Spark has an active TMS, probably because the existing A123 batteries already display good tolerance to high heat and the Spark is only going to be sold in markets not known for high temperatures. These new cells don't seem to address the major issue with the A123 batteries, which is energy density.

 

[DaveEV]

The big market for batteries with this new technology will be 12v batteries if the cold temperature performance holds up. For traction pack applications the big problem for the A123 packs remains energy density.

A123 needs to turn this into an aftermarket plug-and-play upgrade for cars and sell it as a lightweight replacement battery for performance oriented users. OEM deals are great, but for years now I've felt that they've missed an opportunity to sell good volumes of product to end-users. A battery like this will appeal to sports and efficiency drivers alike.

That bring back the question what is optimal temp for Leaf battery? Desperately searching for answer

Depends on your definition of optimal.

For optimal calendar life - you want a nice cold battery. Keep the battery around freezing and it should last a long time.

For optimal range - you need a warmer battery. The warmer the battery is, the more energy it can hold.

For optimal power - the rest of the electronics limit max power at least until temps go well below freezing.

Obviously optimal temperature is a compromise and depends on your goals. For most, I think that colder will be better since that will maximize calendar life and as TaylorSFGuy near the coast of WA has shown after a year approaching 40,000 miles, cycle life isn't proving to be a be a huge contributor to battery degradation compared to temperature.

All Lithium based batteries will be similar - but be affected by temperatures differently.

Sounds like these new A123 EXT batteries are very tolerant of heat/cold. Would love to see a calendar life chart for them.

 

[scottf200]

<snip>duplicate - thought server error didn't post it <snip>

 

[scottf200]

http://www.a123systems.com/93f6a479-ed0f-4267-b270-3a9f51665815/media-room-2012-press-releases-detail.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WALTHAM, Mass., June 12, 2012 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- A123 Systems (Nasdaq:AONE), a developer and manufacturer of advanced Nanophosphate® lithium iron phosphate batteries and systems, today introduced Nanophosphate EXT™, a new lithium ion battery technology capable of operating at extreme temperatures without requiring thermal management. Nanophosphate EXT is designed to significantly reduce or eliminate the need for heating or cooling systems, which is expected to create sizeable new opportunities within the transportation and telecommunications markets, among others.

"We believe Nanophosphate EXT is a game-changing breakthrough that overcomes one of the key limitations of lead acid, standard lithium ion and other advanced batteries. By delivering high power, energy and cycle life capabilities over a wider temperature range, we believe Nanophosphate EXT can reduce or even eliminate the need for costly thermal management systems, which we expect will dramatically enhance the business case for deploying A123's lithium ion battery solutions for a significant number of applications," said David Vieau, CEO of A123 Systems.
<snip>

 

[Ingineer]

A123 needs to turn this into an aftermarket plug-and-play upgrade for cars and sell it as a lightweight replacement battery for performance oriented users. OEM deals are great, but for years now I've felt that they've missed an opportunity to sell good volumes of product to end-users. A battery like this will appeal to sports and efficiency drivers alike.

Here's an aftermarket version of what you are wanting. It uses the A123 26650's. I know the guy producing them, he does top-notch work.



http://lithiumstart.com/12vstarting.htm

-Phil

 

[ERG4ALL]

I would think that if A123 really has a better battery, but is under capitalized, that they would license or sell the rights to some larger company and then close the doors. They may be able to satisfy the creditors and perhaps even show a small return to the investors. If an investor just buys more stock in the company, its investment is more at risk because it has no control because its investment is diluted with all the existing shareholders. At least by gaining the rights, if it is large enough it may be able to bring the battery to market and it would probably bring a few key technical people with it.

 

[edatoakrun]

"Herm"That article is mostly about A123 12V batteries replacing standard lead-acid batteries in micro-hybrid start-stop applications. The chemistry changes are minor on the standard A123 uses...

IMO, it looks like A123 and other independent battery producers now find their BEV battery programs left high and dry, by their prospective customers, those auto manufacturers who are now announcing their plans to build BEVs only in very low volume, for "compliance" purposes, requiring very few batteries.

So they are trying to find other applications for their products:

...A123 has identified two key high-volume markets for the EXT technology, Kessen said: micro-hybrids (i.e., start-stop) and telecommunications, especially in developing countries...

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/06/ext-20120612.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[tbleakne]

That bring back the question what is optimal temp for Leaf battery? Desperately searching for answer

Depends on your definition of optimal.

[1]For optimal calendar life - you want a nice cold battery. Keep the battery around freezing and it should last a long time.
[2]For optimal range - you need a warmer battery. The warmer the battery is, the more energy it can hold.
[3]For optimal power - the rest of the electronics limit max power at least until temps go well below freezing.

Obviously optimal temperature is a compromise and depends on your goals. For most, I think that colder will be better since that will maximize calendar life and as TaylorSFGuy near the coast of WA has shown after a year approaching 40,000 miles,
[4] cycle life isn't proving to be a be a huge contributor to battery degradation compared to temperature.

All Lithium based batteries will be similar - but be affected by temperatures differently.

I certainly agree with [1]. With respect to [2] and [3], it is my understanding that the cell resistance rises at low temperature, so it seems possible that part of the temporary perceived capacity loss is actually increased discharge loss, which also increases at higher powers (higher discharge rate). I have measured the discharge loss using the gid meter at 70s temperature, and it is was only 3% at 30 kW, but I would expect the loss to be higher at lower temperatures.

[4]: Certainly higher temperatures are correlated to faster capacity loss, but I believe the data does not rule out the possibility that high temperatures amplify both the shelf-live loss and the cycle loss. The impressive experience by TaylorSFGuy demonstrates that extensive and deep cycles need not cause loss at low temperatures, especially if the car is driven gently with presumably limited use of higher power. However, the experience of those of us in warmer climates, not as extreme as in AZ, is that we are seeing some correlation between (driving distance and cycle depth) and permanent capacity loss.

Charging to 100% frequently seems to have some limited but not overwhelming impact at intermediate temperatures. I agree the temperature dependence seems the strongest. At the opposite end, I have not seen much data on correlation between capacity loss and frequent discharges down to LB at these temperatures.

 

[DaveEV]

Moderators note: Moved a bunch of the recent A123 discussion from the Spark EV thread to here.

 

[scottf200]

http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-ion-battery-technology.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

100% DOD Cycling at 45ºC

Nanophosphate EXT™ Lithium Ion

A123’s next-generation Nanophosphate EXT™ lithium ion battery technology improves power capability at low temperature and life at high temperature, potentially reducing or eliminating the need for costly thermal management.

By extending the capabilities of our core Nanophosphate® technology over a wider temperature operating range, Nanophosphate EXT is expected to deliver increased performance and reliability while minimizing complexity and reducing total cost of ownership (TCO) over the life of the battery system for a number of applications, including micro hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles, telecommunications backup and military systems, among others.
Lower Total Cost of Ownership
* Wide temperature operating capability reduces the need for costly thermal management equipment and associated operating costs
* Greater power capability reduces the need for pack oversizing to meet application requirements
* Better calendar and cycle life means greater battery utilization, fewer replacements and lower maintenance costs