hill
Well-known member
Maybe 2%?
TomT said:
3.3 vs 6.6 KW on-board charger - charging times?
- Thread starter hara
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jtellerelsberg
New member
Hello all. I'm a pre-newbie since I don't have the car yet and haven't inked a deal. I'm in endgame discussions with the Nissan dealer and (ahem) Ford regarding Focus EV. (Basically trying to get best lease deal I can for a car I'll be happy with, which I'm pretty sure is either Leaf or Focus. I'm mostly agnostic about which vehicle beyond the lease numbers, with minor pros and cons regarding each as far as I can figure.)
Anyway, my question has to do with the charging of the Leaf S with base 3.3kW charger vs. upgrade charger. The thread so far hasn't clarified everything for me. I ask because the Nissan dealer has given me lease numbers on a base model S which is due to arrive at the dealership in a week'ish. Not surprisingly, it's the best lease I've seen number-wise, but I'm slightly wary of the 3.3kW charger given the chatter here.
Before asking the questions, here's some more background info in case it helps: my commute beginning this fall will be about 25 miles each way. I live in Vermont and will experience severe cold (e.g., a few days each winter with daytime highs that are below 0'F, and many days each winter with daytime highs in the single digits). That makes me think that, with heat and defrost running strong and temperature effects on the battery, my range from a full charge might conceivably drop to about 50 miles. There is a charging station in the parking lot at my commute destination, though likely to be shared by more than one EV driver, so I can't trust that my car will be plugged in for the full time I am there, or even necessarily that I'll have access to it at all on some days. I don't know what the specs are for that charging station.
Questions:
1) When charging from a 110v outlet, is there any difference in charging time for 3.3kW vs. 6.6kW charger? I know of four other EV households in my town (three MiEVs and one 2013 Leaf SV) and I believe that all rely exclusively on regular wall outlets for their home charging. All else being equal, I'm happy to save the cost of electrical work and a level 2 charging station if slow-and-steady overnight charging following ~50 miles or less of daily battery drain will do the trick.
2) If I get the car with the 3.3kW charger, will I still be able to use level 2 chargers--and if so, any level 2 chargers regardless of amperage, or limited to a subset of level 2 chargers?
3) I've read here that charging is relatively faster up to about 80% full, then slows down for remainder of charging. Can anyone offer reasonable estimates for charging times for the 3.3kW charger when:
a) using 110v outlet, charging from 0% or 25% or 50% full up to 80% full?
b) using public level 2 charger from 0% or 25% or 50% up to 80% full?
4) the above question might be awkward or poorly asked based on my limited understanding of how charge vs. range works.* Here's another version: with the 3.3kW charger on an unspecified public charging station, and in cold weather (if that matters), how many miles am I likely to gain from 1 or 3 or 5 hours of charging?
* In particular, is range a linear function of charge? I.e., assuming identical driving conditions, if I get 20 miles from the first 20% of charge, will I also get 20 miles from the next 20%, and so on down to Turtle?
Phew! Sorry to dump my whole life's story on you all, but my mind is swimming with all of this. I come at this with a twinge of paranoia: I once accidentally ran my current vehicle (Golf TDI) empty while on the highway on what turned out to be the coldest day of that particular winter.** Waiting for the tow truck was rather unpleasant. I really, really don't want to relive that experience -- but on the other hand, I also don't want to add $50 a month or more to my lease based on exaggerated fears.
** Never, and I mean NEVER, run a diesel empty. You can't just pour in fuel and start up again, like with gasoline. (Or electric!) You have to open up the engine and do surgery 'n stuff that makes it a terribly expensive (and embarrassing) experience.
Many thanks in advance for answers and wisdom.
-Jonathan
Anyway, my question has to do with the charging of the Leaf S with base 3.3kW charger vs. upgrade charger. The thread so far hasn't clarified everything for me. I ask because the Nissan dealer has given me lease numbers on a base model S which is due to arrive at the dealership in a week'ish. Not surprisingly, it's the best lease I've seen number-wise, but I'm slightly wary of the 3.3kW charger given the chatter here.
Before asking the questions, here's some more background info in case it helps: my commute beginning this fall will be about 25 miles each way. I live in Vermont and will experience severe cold (e.g., a few days each winter with daytime highs that are below 0'F, and many days each winter with daytime highs in the single digits). That makes me think that, with heat and defrost running strong and temperature effects on the battery, my range from a full charge might conceivably drop to about 50 miles. There is a charging station in the parking lot at my commute destination, though likely to be shared by more than one EV driver, so I can't trust that my car will be plugged in for the full time I am there, or even necessarily that I'll have access to it at all on some days. I don't know what the specs are for that charging station.
Questions:
1) When charging from a 110v outlet, is there any difference in charging time for 3.3kW vs. 6.6kW charger? I know of four other EV households in my town (three MiEVs and one 2013 Leaf SV) and I believe that all rely exclusively on regular wall outlets for their home charging. All else being equal, I'm happy to save the cost of electrical work and a level 2 charging station if slow-and-steady overnight charging following ~50 miles or less of daily battery drain will do the trick.
2) If I get the car with the 3.3kW charger, will I still be able to use level 2 chargers--and if so, any level 2 chargers regardless of amperage, or limited to a subset of level 2 chargers?
3) I've read here that charging is relatively faster up to about 80% full, then slows down for remainder of charging. Can anyone offer reasonable estimates for charging times for the 3.3kW charger when:
a) using 110v outlet, charging from 0% or 25% or 50% full up to 80% full?
b) using public level 2 charger from 0% or 25% or 50% up to 80% full?
4) the above question might be awkward or poorly asked based on my limited understanding of how charge vs. range works.* Here's another version: with the 3.3kW charger on an unspecified public charging station, and in cold weather (if that matters), how many miles am I likely to gain from 1 or 3 or 5 hours of charging?
* In particular, is range a linear function of charge? I.e., assuming identical driving conditions, if I get 20 miles from the first 20% of charge, will I also get 20 miles from the next 20%, and so on down to Turtle?
Phew! Sorry to dump my whole life's story on you all, but my mind is swimming with all of this. I come at this with a twinge of paranoia: I once accidentally ran my current vehicle (Golf TDI) empty while on the highway on what turned out to be the coldest day of that particular winter.** Waiting for the tow truck was rather unpleasant. I really, really don't want to relive that experience -- but on the other hand, I also don't want to add $50 a month or more to my lease based on exaggerated fears.
** Never, and I mean NEVER, run a diesel empty. You can't just pour in fuel and start up again, like with gasoline. (Or electric!) You have to open up the engine and do surgery 'n stuff that makes it a terribly expensive (and embarrassing) experience.
Many thanks in advance for answers and wisdom.
-Jonathan
cwerdna
Well-known member
^^^
1) No.
2) Yes. You can use any of the L2 EVSEs. In some/cases many, having only the 3.3 kW on-board charger would be the limiting factor. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=301972#p301972" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/attachment/13leafproduct5/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can give you an idea of the # of miles per hour added.
In the absence of a CHAdeMO DC fast charger, if the public stations you're going to use (e.g. at your commute destinations) are L2 EVSEs and they support 30 amp output, you'd be best off getting a Leaf w/the 6 kW on-board charger, so that you can replenish range in less time.
1) No.
2) Yes. You can use any of the L2 EVSEs. In some/cases many, having only the 3.3 kW on-board charger would be the limiting factor. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=301972#p301972" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/attachment/13leafproduct5/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can give you an idea of the # of miles per hour added.
In the absence of a CHAdeMO DC fast charger, if the public stations you're going to use (e.g. at your commute destinations) are L2 EVSEs and they support 30 amp output, you'd be best off getting a Leaf w/the 6 kW on-board charger, so that you can replenish range in less time.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
While you might be able to do 50 miles/day with Level 1 (120 Volt) charging, you will find it pretty inconvenient. In winter you would need to charge pretty much 24 hours a day to have enough range plus heater use. Also, one advantage of a LEAF is the ability to preheat it while plugged-in in winter, but that doesn't work well at 120 Volts (and forget it in zero degree weather). In your climate with that commute you will need the advantage of Level 2 (240 Volt) charging at home. If you use EVSE Upgrade and install a 240 Volt outlet at home it might not be very expensive.jtellerelsberg said:
Yes, any Level 2 EVSE will work fine on a car with the 3.3 kW charger. That's what those of us with 2011 and 2012 models have.
In general, you can expect about four to five miles per hour of charging at Level 1 in mild weather. In winter with heater use? Count on something closer to three miles per hour. Let me give you some numbers so that you can figure it out yourself:
120 Volts x 12 Amps = 1.44 kW
L1 charging is about 75% efficient, so
1.44 kW x 0.75 = 1.08 kW to the battery
Driving efficiency depends greatly on speed and weather. 5 miles/kWh is good for mild weather. I get about 4 miles/kWh in winter weather but that's on dry roads with little or no heater use. If you are pushing through snow at 0ºF you might be better off using 3 miles/kWh. That would be 1.08 kWh x 3 miles/kWh = 3.24 miles of range per hour of charging at Level 1. And that may be a bit on the optimistic side. You might want to use 2.5 miles per hour of charging to be more conservative in the worst of winter weather. With L2 charging at home and L1 at work this would be easy. With L1 at home and work, not so much. If you have L2 at work that would help, but a single shared EVSE might be a problem in winter: ideally you would want it at the end of the day so you could preheat while plugged-in. But so would everyone else, I would guess!
Given your desire to avoid getting towed, you would likely be ok in a LEAF with workplace charging. However, some other things to consider:
• Snow tires will reduce mileage efficiency somewhat.
• The heater on the S model is less efficient than the heat pump on the SV/SL models. That won't matter much at zero degrees but it should help somewhat in the teens, twenties and thirties. If you dress for winter you may find that a combination of preheating plus the steering wheel and seat heaters is sufficient for comfort (it is for me and I grew up in Hawai'i, a state not known for cold weather). In that case you won't take as much of a range hit. But you likely will have to use the heater to defrost the windshield at times. If you want to dress lightly and keep the car toasty warm, you will take a severe range hit when using the heater in the LEAF because all that energy comes from the battery, not waste heat as in an ICE car.
Good luck with your decisions.
I echo dgpcolorado's comments. Get the evseupgrade.com or a L2 charging station for home. With a 50 mi RT commute and 0 F, you'll absolutely need L2 at home. Don't try to do a winter using the L1 trickle charger only. It won't work. Summer using L1 is "possible", but that might be pushing it. Preheating on L1 does work down to 20 F in my garage (haven't tested it any lower yet). Here are some L1-L2-cold links that you might find useful:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11123&p=255938#p255938
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11506#p265550
The 3.3 KW charger is plenty sufficient for full charge overnight (~7 hr from empty to full). The 6.0 KW charger is only necessary if you need to charge out in public or routinely come home near empty, charge over dinner, and then go out again for a show or something and need more miles. I would go with the SV or SL and the less energy intensive hybrid heater. My 2011 without the cold weather package works great, sucks down the KWHs, but I only have an 8 mi RT commute.
As for workplace charging, it's "probably" not necessary unless the weather is really bad. Check out Kubel's experience, or our Canadian members. The good news is that even a small amount of L1 trickle charging (4-5 hrs) or L2 (1-2 hrs) should be enough of a boost to help on those really bad days. Another benefit to topping up at work would be the ability to pre-heat (and defrost those windows) prior to leaving at night. Good luck on your decision and enjoy.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11123&p=255938#p255938
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11506#p265550
The 3.3 KW charger is plenty sufficient for full charge overnight (~7 hr from empty to full). The 6.0 KW charger is only necessary if you need to charge out in public or routinely come home near empty, charge over dinner, and then go out again for a show or something and need more miles. I would go with the SV or SL and the less energy intensive hybrid heater. My 2011 without the cold weather package works great, sucks down the KWHs, but I only have an 8 mi RT commute.
As for workplace charging, it's "probably" not necessary unless the weather is really bad. Check out Kubel's experience, or our Canadian members. The good news is that even a small amount of L1 trickle charging (4-5 hrs) or L2 (1-2 hrs) should be enough of a boost to help on those really bad days. Another benefit to topping up at work would be the ability to pre-heat (and defrost those windows) prior to leaving at night. Good luck on your decision and enjoy.
theaveng
Well-known member
.
This chart seems highly inaccurate. Very few EVs follow a linear charge curve, preferring to rapid-charge the battery when it is empty, slow down after 50% point is passed, and often moving at just half or one-quarter charge rate beyond 80%. Doesn't anybody have an accurate measure of Leaf's charge rate vs. the fuction of SOC (%)???
This chart seems highly inaccurate. Very few EVs follow a linear charge curve, preferring to rapid-charge the battery when it is empty, slow down after 50% point is passed, and often moving at just half or one-quarter charge rate beyond 80%. Doesn't anybody have an accurate measure of Leaf's charge rate vs. the fuction of SOC (%)???
TonyWilliams said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Highly inaccurate? None of the quoted rates are "rapid-charge", and are most definitely not slowing down from 12 amps.
You are confusing DC CHAdeMO charging, which does begin to ramp down at 50% from 395 volts / 120 amps (about 48kW).
You are confusing DC CHAdeMO charging, which does begin to ramp down at 50% from 395 volts / 120 amps (about 48kW).
theaveng said:
theaveng
Well-known member
May I see that chart?TonyWilliams said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
theaveng said:
Well, I don't have a chart for that.
Up to 50% SOC @ 48kW * 90% efficiency = 43kW * 4 miles per kWh = 172 miles per hour rate / 2.8 miles per minute
The charge rate is lower after 50% SOC and continues to decline until fully charged.
Cold battery temperatures will significantly reduce the charge rate.
Some CHAdeMOs do not have 120 amp capability.
theaveng
Well-known member
Wow that is fast.
Are those Leaf rapid-chargers available across the country, or just in California?
How much do they cost to use?
Here's a chart from the Tesla supercharger (90 kilowatt version... new 120 kW variants are being installed):
Are those Leaf rapid-chargers available across the country, or just in California?
How much do they cost to use?
Here's a chart from the Tesla supercharger (90 kilowatt version... new 120 kW variants are being installed):
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
theaveng said:
Try http://www.PlugShare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to find CHAdeMO stations. The cost varies from free to about $15 hour.
http://www.chademo.com/wp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 3090.
-- (Japan 1,858, Europe 914, USA 306 Others 12)
theaveng
Well-known member
All clustered together in a few U.S. cities (and none where I live). I could not take the Leaf on a crosscountry trip like the Tesla superchargers enable, or even a trip from LA to SanFran or Las Vegas. That's a shame.
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