2018 LEAF Drive Review

[OrientExpress]

I am quite shocked that there is no mention of the Humongous enhancements to Nissan Connect. It is now an app worth paying for. (as we all know, it would take A LOT for me to say that! :shock: )

Nissan Connect is a real hidden Gem for LEAF II. BTW, LEAF 2 has 4G LTE for Nissan Connect initially and as a hotspot later on.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I am with you and after digesting the experience a bit, its becoming clear to me that this not LEAF II...maybe LEAF PP (pro pilot) intro but I chose to designate it as LEAF I½.

I seem to recall that Nissan had hinted that the 2018 is really more like a major refresh than a truly new generation. It really makes sense seeing the car, and calling it Leaf 1.5 is appropriate.

So pretty obvious to me that the LEAF was not the showcase here, its Pro Pilot and I predict Pro Pilot will be a HUGE hit. Its not autonomous driving by any means but it WILL prevent a lot of accidents caused by driver fatigue or inattention. And its a fraction of the cost of Tesla AP.

This is what excites me. I don't need ProPilot for stop-and-go traffic. I almost never see it. (In contrast to your rapidly growing populations, ours is stagnant/shrinking. In many places, the roads are larger than they need to be for the volume of traffic, because they were built for a larger population). What I do need is a system that will help me during long late-night drives down the interstate. It's easy to zone out and start wandering out of your lane. Coffee only helps so much.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

That's embarrassing even for a PR flack. Do you really expect people to believe that Arizona and California only got Hot in 2010? This is why people have doubts about Nissan's (and your) credibility. Hell, I could write a reasonable, convincing argument to mitigate Nissan's responsibility for the Gen 1 battery debacle, but I don't especially want to let any of you have it. ;-(

First off I am not a PR flack, but even you realize that 2010 and later have been the hottest on record the US. Weather is more extreme in every dimension, in every location, and instead of it being an edge case situation, it was a major factor in the way the batteries of the early cars behaved. It threw everyone off, and it took a lot of effort to get in front of it.

What happened back then was regrettable, but it is history and it is time to move on.

This is all I have to say on this issue in this discussion.

Weather has changed no doubt. I lived in AZ YEARS ago and we might see 110 1-2 a year. 100+ 20-30 times or so but most of the time the high was 95-99º. But then again, Phoenix was a pretty small town. What shocks me is how Vegas has grown. The airport is now in the middle of town! Last time I was there, there was nothing within 5 miles of it!

So is it global warming or "asphalt gone wild?" :shock:

 

[Nubo]

Weather has changed no doubt. I lived in AZ YEARS ago and we might see 110 1-2 a year. 100+ 20-30 times or so but most of the time the high was 95-99º. But then again, Phoenix was a pretty small town. What shocks me is how Vegas has grown. The airport is now in the middle of town! Last time I was there, there was nothing within 5 miles of it!

So is it global warming or "asphalt gone wild?" :shock:

Some of both. Big cities are definitely heat-islands.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So pretty obvious to me that the LEAF was not the showcase here, its Pro Pilot and I predict Pro Pilot will be a HUGE hit. Its not autonomous driving by any means but it WILL prevent a lot of accidents caused by driver fatigue or inattention. And its a fraction of the cost of Tesla AP.

This is what excites me. I don't need ProPilot for stop-and-go traffic. I almost never see it. (In contrast to your rapidly growing populations, ours is stagnant/shrinking. In many places, the roads are larger than they need to be for the volume of traffic, because they were built for a larger population). What I do need is a system that will help me during long late-night drives down the interstate. It's easy to zone out and start wandering out of your lane. Coffee only helps so much.

Gonna have to wait for Pro Pilot II then cause Pro Pilot will begin to bring your car to a stop in roughly 15-20 if you don't respond to prompts to put hands on steering wheel. In Sal's video drive, the Nissan rep does a pretty good job of explaining the process. The car will roll to a dead stop in the middle of your lane with hazard lights flashing.

 

[OakLeaf]

Thanks for the excellent write-up of your first impressions and test drive - good stuff, especially the comparisons to the existing models!

Any chance you or anyone else has had the opportunity to run LeafSpy on a 2018 model?

I would count it a huge loss to not be able to get at that level of system detail as we can today, especially as it seems Nissan has simplified and reduced the battery capacity loss / state of charge (aka "battery bars") instrumentation display in the 2018's.

I am quite shocked that there is no mention of the Humongous enhancements to Nissan Connect. It is now an app worth paying for. (as we all know, it would take A LOT for me to say that!

Any app screen shots or additional comments on this?

Given the general poor performance issues and history of the prior Nissan Connect service, it would be very interesting to see how it's been improved.

I've been holding off on getting the 2G->4G TCU update done due to the ongoing struggles others have been having (don't want to risk a dead 12V battery) but if Nissan does truly keep to their intents of giving the prior model years access to the new and improved service, it does give some hope that they will get these problems resolved.

Thanks again!

 

[evnow]

First off I am not a PR flack, but even you realize that 2010 and later have been the hottest on record the US. Weather is more extreme in every dimension, in every location, and instead of it being an edge case situation, it was a major factor in the way the batteries of the early cars behaved. It threw everyone off, and it took a lot of effort to get in front of it.

What Nissan did what malpractice. It has nothing to do with a degree or so of higher temperature. Its not like Phoenix was like Seattle before 2011.

Earlier we can all accept this - faster we can leave that phase behind and move to Leaf 2.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Thanks for the excellent write-up of your first impressions and test drive - good stuff, especially the comparisons to the existing models!

Any chance you or anyone else has had the opportunity to run LeafSpy on a 2018 model?

I would count it a huge loss to not be able to get at that level of system detail as we can today, especially as it seems Nissan has simplified and reduced the battery capacity loss / state of charge (aka "battery bars") instrumentation display in the 2018's.

I am quite shocked that there is no mention of the Humongous enhancements to Nissan Connect. It is now an app worth paying for. (as we all know, it would take A LOT for me to say that!

Any app screen shots or additional comments on this?

Given the general poor performance issues and history of the prior Nissan Connect service, it would be very interesting to see how it's been improved.

I've been holding off on getting the 2G->4G TCU update done due to the ongoing struggles others have been having (don't want to risk a dead 12V battery) but if Nissan does truly keep to their intents of giving the prior model years access to the new and improved service, it does give some hope that they will get these problems resolved.

Thanks again!

There is speculation by a LEAF Tech that LEAF Spy access will be blocked due to some issues that have arisen with some OBD scanners. Nothing definitive and CAN BUS will still have some info that we can view but might not be where we want it to be. Nothing definitive on that yet.

Biggest improvement is 4 G LTE. (3 G is the current and ONLY standard available) But features available is remote lock/unlock, Audio (plays horn and flashes lights to easier locate) boundary setups, curfew setups for teens. OTA updates.

If you currently have Nissan connect, many of these features will be added to your system as well. Keep in mind; there are hardware limitations to some of the features that will be available.

I haven't used Nissan Connect (It was CARWINGS when I had it) but it was so slow, I simply got too frustrated with it. A few times, I tried to pre heat car like 5 mins early and I frequently got to the car like seconds after it had started...

 

[OrientExpress]

What Nissan did what malpractice. It has nothing to do with a degree or so of higher temperature. Its not like Phoenix was like Seattle before 2011.

Earlier we can all accept this - faster we can leave that phase behind and move to Leaf 2.

We can agree to disagree about the cause, but we must agree to move on.

 

[OakLeaf]

Thanks Dave for the additional info...

There is speculation by a LEAF Tech that LEAF Spy access will be blocked due to some issues that have arisen with some OBD scanners. Nothing definitive and CAN BUS will still have some info that we can view but might not be where we want it to be. Nothing definitive on that yet.

If there is any way to influence the folks at Nissan to keep the full existing ability open and available, I would strongly advocate for it.

If the new battery chemistry has indeed eliminated the premature degradation and excessive loss of capacity problem, I would see Nissan's choice to leave the tools and ability in place to prove it has been solved as a very positive action in rebuilding trust and confidence in them on this issue.

Aside from that, numbers nerds such as myself can never have enough data to play with and graph! LOL

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Thanks Dave for the additional info...

There is speculation by a LEAF Tech that LEAF Spy access will be blocked due to some issues that have arisen with some OBD scanners. Nothing definitive and CAN BUS will still have some info that we can view but might not be where we want it to be. Nothing definitive on that yet.

If there is any way to influence the folks at Nissan to keep the full existing ability open and available, I would strongly advocate for it.

If the new battery chemistry has indeed eliminated the premature degradation and excessive loss of capacity problem, I would see Nissan's choice to leave the tools and ability in place to prove it has been solved as a very positive action in rebuilding trust and confidence in them on this issue.

Aside from that, numbers nerds such as myself can never have enough data to play with and graph! LOL

well, in my 10 mins with LEAF expert, I had just asked him to quantify his confidence in the new battery but he was seemingly the ONLY person there directly involved with the LEAF and was called away just as he was starting to give his answer. because EVERYTHING is going against it.

**larger capacity in same volume
**higher power level output
**higher charge density
**Larger capacity means more time at max power on chademo

None of that says "cooler" to me. So they either have a lot of confidence in their chemistry or they are ok with replacing a significant number of packs under warranty in hotter climates.

But its new chemistry and guessing they have decided to go one way or the other. I do know that 3 bars of degradation on a 40 kwh pack still gives me more range than I have now in my "yet to be degraded" 30 kwh pack.

**edit** I REALLY hesitate to mention this because it could very well mean nothing but Nissan did say the pack would have "air cooling" a term I don't recall them using before. Does this mean there is venting to the pack? Even if it was passive air flow or simply air flow caused by vehicle motion, a way in means a way to modify.

 

[OrientExpress]

To Dave's point about encrypting the bus, Nissan is concerned about excess traffic contesting thruput that could comprise the autonomous traffic. That's why they may want to limit who can get on the bus and generate traffic.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

To Dave's point about encrypting the bus, Nissan is concerned about excess traffic contesting thruput that could comprise the autonomous traffic. That's why they may want to limit who can get on the bus and generate traffic.

But doesn't LEAF Spy do nothing but listen? They provide no input, correct?

 

[ElectricEddy]

To Dave's point about encrypting the bus, Nissan is concerned about excess traffic contesting thruput that could comprise the autonomous traffic. That's why they may want to limit who can get on the bus and generate traffic.

But doesn't LEAF Spy do nothing but listen? They provide no input, correct?

Here is one http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23864&start=110

 

[LeftieBiker]

LeafSpy can be used to change settings and clear codes. If Nissan is worried about this, they could just block all communication INTO the bus. This sounds to me like they don't want people monitoring rapid declines in capacity, as they can with the 30kwh pack...

I had just asked him to quantify his confidence in the new battery but he was seemingly the ONLY person there directly involved with the LEAF and was called away just as he was starting to give his answer.

Uh oh...hand signal? Button on cell phone to trigger being called away...?

 

[OrientExpress]

To Dave's point about encrypting the bus, Nissan is concerned about excess traffic contesting thruput that could comprise the autonomous traffic. That's why they may want to limit who can get on the bus and generate traffic.

But doesn't LEAF Spy do nothing but listen? They provide no input, correct?

Sorta, the app has to make a query and it is the volume of queries and the responses that is the concern. There appears to be concern about bus capacity with the new high bandwidth traffic from pro pilot.

 

[OakLeaf]

To Dave's point about encrypting the bus, Nissan is concerned about excess traffic contesting thruput that could comprise the autonomous traffic. That's why they may want to limit who can get on the bus and generate traffic.

There appears to be concern about bus capacity with the new high bandwidth traffic from pro pilot.

Agreed that Nissan certainly has a valid concern, and would think that encryption is but one of several layers employed in ensuring bus and system integrity. I would also expect that there are also other levels of security, access control, redundancy and fail safe mechanisms (hard and soft) employed that protect the system from unexpected or malicious events.

That being so, there will also surely be provisions for allowing normal, routine and necessary owner access to the CAN bus in a safe and controlled manner. Such a bus gateway could easily provide read-only access to an unencrypted copy of the detailed component and system information during operation in a manner and at a transmission rate comparable to such as we presently enjoy.

To reiterate what I said further up thread: If the new battery chemistry has indeed eliminated the premature degradation and excessive loss of capacity problem, I would see Nissan's choice to leave the tools and ability in place to prove it has been solved as a very positive action in rebuilding trust and confidence in them on this issue.

We've been implored to let the past battery issues be bygones and look to the future. OK, it's sensible and mature to be pragmatic and forgive past transgressions, but by the same token, it would also be foolish to forget past lessons as well.

If Nissan decides to limit the information such that we can no longer readily track the cell and overall pack metrics, I would see this as a worrying lack of confidence on their part and a good reason to be distrustful of their future battery performance claims.

OrientExpress, I don't intend to sound harsh or disrespectful to you, so I hope you don't take the above as a personal affront as this is not my intent. Rather, I'm hoping that since you seem to have Nissan's ear, you can help influence their thinking and actions for all our benefit.

 

[Nubo]

...We've been implored to let the past battery issues be bygones and look to the future. OK, it's sensible and mature to be pragmatic and forgive past transgressions, but by the same token, it would also be foolish to forget past lessons as well.

If Nissan decides to limit the information such that we can no longer readily track the cell and overall pack metrics, I would see this as a worrying lack of confidence on their part and a good reason to be distrustful of their future battery performance claims....

Agreed.

 

[OrientExpress]

I see your point, and while no automaker that I know of encourages the access of their vehicles network and APIs, there are many 3rd parties that have apps that read the data streams, and can decoded the traffic. And in the past that has been a fairly benign activity.

The industry as a whole is changing their stance on this because of the possibility that now vehicle safety can be compromised not only by maliciously accessing a cars systems but by other ways and one way is by overloading a network. Essentially the issue in this case is an inadvertent DoS situation because of traffic generated by an app.

So you have to agree that if you were in Nissan's position and someone said they wanted to monitor your system because they did not trust what you were doing, and that monitoring had the potential to cause a life threatening situation with the car, you (and your lawyers) would probably tell them to **** off. System security and integrity takes top priority these days.

Another issue that has always concerned me about these LEAF monitoring apps is that much of data that is displayed is assumed to have have a particular meaning. There is a lot of assumptions being displayed simply because Nissan does not release their APIs and the data was reverse engineered. One has to wonder how much of the suspicion is driven by actual data and how much by assumptive interpretation.

Again I don't want to get off topic on this thread, but this is certainly food for thought. I would love to see a roundtable with people from Nissan that really understand their vehicles systems and performance and a like number of citizen skeptics who feel that they know what is actually happening.

And the skeptics aren't Reagan and Nissan isn't Gorbachev

 

[Evoforce]

Thanks Dave for the additional info...

There is speculation by a LEAF Tech that LEAF Spy access will be blocked due to some issues that have arisen with some OBD scanners. Nothing definitive and CAN BUS will still have some info that we can view but might not be where we want it to be. Nothing definitive on that yet.

If there is any way to influence the folks at Nissan to keep the full existing ability open and available, I would strongly advocate for it.

If the new battery chemistry has indeed eliminated the premature degradation and excessive loss of capacity problem, I would see Nissan's choice to leave the tools and ability in place to prove it has been solved as a very positive action in rebuilding trust and confidence in them on this issue.

Aside from that, numbers nerds such as myself can never have enough data to play with and graph! LOL

well, in my 10 mins with LEAF expert, I had just asked him to quantify his confidence in the new battery but he was seemingly the ONLY person there directly involved with the LEAF and was called away just as he was starting to give his answer. because EVERYTHING is going against it.

**larger capacity in same volume
**higher power level output
**higher charge density
**Larger capacity means more time at max power on chademo

None of that says "cooler" to me. So they either have a lot of confidence in their chemistry or they are ok with replacing a significant number of packs under warranty in hotter climates.

But its new chemistry and guessing they have decided to go one way or the other. I do know that 3 bars of degradation on a 40 kwh pack still gives me more range than I have now in my "yet to be degraded" 30 kwh pack.

**edit** I REALLY hesitate to mention this because it could very well mean nothing but Nissan did say the pack would have "air cooling" a term I don't recall them using before. Does this mean there is venting to the pack? Even if it was passive air flow or simply air flow caused by vehicle motion, a way in means a way to modify.

They have always said that the battery was passively air cooled.

Currently having 3 Leafs in the family, Nissan darn well needs to prove that their battery is beyond a doubt without heat issues!!! Every battery up to this point has suffered... They need to explain in detail why their current 2018 won't suffer the same fate.

We love these cars in every other way but will not buy another until they prove it! Other than that, I think the car has some nice improvements. I really want to believe the 2018 and beyond will not suffer battery problems. I want Nissan to succeed at selling reliable electric plug in vehicles.