2013 SL - Range Dropped quickly

[dm33]

Tesla does "rated range", which simply means that it is a energy level meter expressed in miles/km.

The Turbo3 Android battery app does the same, with adjustments for your economy and automatic adjustments for battery temperature.

What does the RAV4 EV show? I wonder how much Tesla permeates Tesla drive train vehicles such as the Rav4 EV and the upcoming Mercedes B-class EV. Seems like its batteries, motor, but also charger. I assume they use J1772 and not the Tesla connector. Have no idea on the dash display if Tesla shows through.

I'm curious how the Mercedes B-class will be priced. If it has good range, could be an interesting complement to the variety of EVs currently available.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What does the RAV4 EV show? I wonder how much Tesla permeates Tesla drive train vehicles such as the Rav4 EV and the upcoming Mercedes B-class EV. Seems like its batteries, motor, but also charger. I assume they use J1772 and not the Tesla connector. Have no idea on the dash display if Tesla shows through.

I'm curious how the Mercedes B-class will be priced. If it has good range, could be an interesting complement to the variety of EVs currently available.

The Rav4 is reasonably good, and doesn't drop off going up a hill or get nutty going down the hill. It is not rated range (I wish it was) and it does make adjustments for your past average economy, like the LEAF.

Don't worry, Toyota did manage to screw up the energy gauge... it stops at 80%. You have no idea if the car is fully charged. For a 132 mile trip, I might jump in the car and drive 65mph on level ground and the car will have a REAL range of 142 miles. The GOM could say just about anything, based on whoever and however they drove previously, so until that first of 16 fuel bar segments extinguishes, I have no idea if I got 80% or 100% (or something in between).

If I only had an 80% charge, the REAL range at 65mph would only be 113 miles... I couldn't make it, plus I wouldn't know until I actually got in the car and started driving.

The Mercedes B-Class EV is going to be a 28kWh car intended for strictly California compliance (IMHO). It will also be very expensive, like the Rav4 EV, and sell in VERY small volume.

Range will only be marginally different than the LEAF.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I don't understand why EV makers want to even show range, ie GOM. Why bother? Its totally inaccurate. It has to be. It can't possibly know how you intend to drive.

In an ICE, the DTE isn't usually prominent. Front and center is how full the gas tank is. Always has been. Likewise an EV should simply show how full the battery is. Show it in kWh or % SOC. But don't bother to show range. Drivers are bound for major disappointment and likely to be stranded. Bury the range guess under some menu somewhere, but not front and center as the primary measure of SOC.

I'll take a stab at that "why bother?" question. The range of a LEAF is much shorter than any ICE car and fueling opportunities are limited and take a much longer time. Driving an EV requires a shift in thinking and planning and Nissan was trying to use the GOM as a guide to help with "range anxiety" in new LEAF drivers. The fact that the GOM, as it is currently implemented, is a poor indicator of the range of the car doesn't change the fact that newcomers need some sort of guide to how far the LEAF can go on a charge. Not very many people can pick up on the efficiency meter and SOC meter and be comfortable estimating range using those tools. The GOM is an attempt to dumb down those calculations.

Although I haven't covered it up, it has been a long time since I've paid any attention to the GOM; it is utterly useless in my very mountainous terrain. I would guess that a lot of veteran LEAF drivers also ignore the GOM and use experience and other tools to figure out the range of the car under various conditions. But Nissan had to do something for the new LEAF owners.

 

[LEAFfan]

I have to call BS on this. I've spent a few weeks driving a 2013 on and off and in my area, which is not really flat anywhere, and the GOM was slightly better than my 2011 but still worthless in trying to determine actual range. It greatly over-stated the range on my way to work and understated it on the way back... If you drive fairly constantly on level terrain it is not bad - but then neither was the 2011 or 2102 under those same conditions... Sorry, but it still sucks and likely will until they can incorporate route look-ahead with elevation and speed data to do a true calculation...

I'm calling your assertion that the 2011/12 GOM was not bad on level terrain BS. It was nowhere close, but this one is now a true DTE on level ground.

Yeah, it's relatively flat, so I can't speak for hilly terrain. But even on flat terrain, as you know, the other one was all over the place.

 

[planet4ever]

Yeah, it's relatively flat, so I can't speak for hilly terrain. But even on flat terrain, as you know, the other one was all over the place.

I have to call BS on this.

I'm calling your assertion that the 2011/12 GOM was not bad on level terrain BS. It was nowhere close, but this one is now a true DTE on level ground.

Maybe, if you drive the same route each day at the same time with the same traffic conditions. But my car has no idea in the morning whether I'm going to be driving around town, on rural roads, or on the freeway. I usually don't know myself. For me the GOM is useless, even with my 2013, and even on level ground.

Ray

 

[Klayfish]

Driving an EV requires a shift in thinking and planning and Nissan was trying to use the GOM as a guide to help with "range anxiety" in new LEAF drivers. The fact that the GOM, as it is currently implemented, is a poor indicator of the range of the car doesn't change the fact that newcomers need some sort of guide to how far the LEAF can go on a charge. Not very many people can pick up on the efficiency meter and SOC meter and be comfortable estimating range using those tools.

As a fairly new LEAF owner (3 weeks and 500 miles), I can testify to this. I've owned a silly number of cars over the past 15-20 years, but this is my first EV. It takes a total shift in thinking and planning. Going into it, I knew that the car would be able to make my 50 mile round trip commute, but really didn't understand how exactly to gauge how much farther I can go. I've found the GOM to be at least "in the ballpark", in that I lose about 40-45 miles on the GOM during my 50 mile trip. I don't rely on it, I'm looking mostly at my bars. Still trying to understand how to use the efficiency meter and SOC meter to get a good gauge of how far I can go.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Have you look at the range chart yet?

 

[dm33]

The GOM isn't very useful for me. From my house I can use slow roads (45 mph), or hop on the expressway at 75mph. I get almost twice the range one way vs the other. Nothing is flat here adds to the confusion.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Have you look at the range chart yet?

On subject of the GOM and your much more useful range chart, consider that the majority of LEAF drivers have never heard of MNL and don't know about your chart. It must be a difficult transition for the average driver going from an ICE car to the limited range LEAF.

I think that's why so many newcomer posts begin with a question about why the car's "range" (GOM) varies so much when they charged to the same amount, as in the case of this thread. They assume that the GOM number must be accurate (else, why would it be there?) and haven't the background to understand how complex the range issue is for an EV (speed, temperature, elevation, weather, etc.).

Until we get (affordable) EVs with ranges long enough that the range question becomes irrelevant, this paradigm shift in thinking between ICE and short-range EVs seems likely to remain an impediment to EV adoption. Even if we transition to a predictive mapping-based GOM, it would be much too complex for many average drivers to understand (my mother, for example). I don't know what the answer is.

 

[palmermd]

There are couple of videos from a new owner, which are making rounds on Facebook. I believe that this owner has elevated the art of taking the guessometer literally to a new level. Let's hope that the GOM is better and more accurate in 2013 LEAFs, just like LEAFfan has said. Nissan would be also well advised to educate new owners better, via YouTube videos and otherwise. It would also be a good idea to set realistic range expectations, instead of pushing the old 100-miles mantra.



Click to open

Seems to me the dealer is still playing shady games with numbers. They sold him on the 99mpge/highway and 103mpge/city ratings. I guess they failed to mention to him that his car only has a 0.62gallon tank (21kwh/33.7kwh).

Nissan needs to completely remove the "auto" calculations from the DTE meter. It should just use a fixed 4.0 miles/kWh which will give a number very close to the EPA and will always show a number that is reasonable. The GOM shows numbers that are not even close to reality.

 

[Klayfish]

Yep, I checked out the range chart a few times at home (my work computer blocks the link, so I can't see it here...ya' know, for security reasons...). Learning all the ways of EVs. As has been said, it's a complete shift in thought process from ICE, so I'm still wrapping my arms around it. The hardest thing to adapt to is it's range and figuring out exactly how much is left. In my ICE car, after a few tankfuls, I could predict how many miles I had left before my next fill up...and I was usually right on the money. It was easy...look at the gas gauge. Not exactly the same here.

Has anyone ever made a chart with all the commonly used abbreviations here? If you did, forgive me, I missed it. But it may help people from getting as overwhlemed. For example, I know I've seen the term MNL before, but I'll be darn if I can remember what it is. Learning the lingo is another challenge...

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Has anyone ever made a chart with all the commonly used abbreviations here? If you did, forgive me, I missed it. But it may help people from getting as overwhlemed. For example, I know I've seen the term MNL before, but I'll be darn if I can remember what it is. Learning the lingo is another challenge...

Sorry: MNL = mynissanleaf.com


Some others:

GOM = "Guess-o-meter", also known as DTE, "Distance to Empty", Nissan's term for the GOM.

EVSE = Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, sometimes incorrectly referred as a "charger", including in the LEAF owner's manual

kWh, kW hr = kilowatt hours, a unit of energy

kW, = kilowatts, a unit of power

Ah = Amp hours, an easier to measure unit of battery capacity than kWh (because the battery voltage changes depending on SOC and load)

SOC = State of Charge, how much charge the battery contains. Often expressed as a percentage although it can be a percentage of full capacity or maximum of available capacity, which are not the same. SOC is difficult to measure precisely.

BCM = Battery Control Module

CC = Climate Control or Cruise Control, depending on context

LBW = Low Battery Warning (comes at 50>49 Gids)

VLBW = Very Low Battery Warning (comes at 25>24 Gids)

Gids, GIDs = energy unit measured by the car, nominally 80 Wh (watt hours). Named for Gary Giddings, "Garygid" here, since he was one of the folks who first figured out what the measurement was and designed a meter to display it.

Turtle = dash warning symbol that the LEAF will be going to reduced power mode because the battery is almost depleted: get off the road and park soon.

DCFC, DCQC, QC = various terms for quick charging using direct current to the battery: Direct Current Fast Charge, Direct Current Quick Charge, Quick Charge


You can find more in the LEAF wiki here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Glossary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And, while I'm at it: volts x amps = watts
1 watt = 1 joule/second

Cd = Coefficient of drag, a measure of an object's intrinsic air resistance characteristics. [It needs to be combined with "cross section area" ("A") to properly calculate drag.]

 

[joeaux]

Yeah, it blows my mind that Nissan can't seem to get the ability to calculate miles left very well. The GOM on my 2013 is just plain wrong most of the time. It fluctuates wildly too. Only had it a little while so maybe it'll get better. I know it's possible because some way or another GM has got it right on the Volt. That damn thing can get the EV miles correct within plus or minus a mile. No joke. If I get it the volt and it says 52 miles of EV and I don't drive like a maniac, I'll get 52 miles give or take a mile or so. That tells me it is possible to do the calculations. I can get by using the SOC as a distance guide but my wife (the Leaf is primarily her car) really depends on the GOM. I'm having a hard time getting her to pay attention to SOC. We'll see how this goes and there's always the free roadside to tow it home for a charge.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yeah, it blows my mind that Nissan can't seem to get the ability to calculate miles left very well. The GOM on my 2013 is just plain wrong most of the time. It fluctuates wildly too. Only had it a little while so maybe it'll get better. I know it's possible because some way or another GM has got it right on the Volt. That damn thing can get the EV miles correct within plus or minus a mile. No joke. If I get it the volt and it says 52 miles of EV and I don't drive like a maniac, I'll get 52 miles give or take a mile or so. That tells me it is possible to do the calculations. I can get by using the SOC as a distance guide but my wife (the Leaf is primarily her car) really depends on the GOM. I'm having a hard time getting her to pay attention to SOC. We'll see how this goes and there's always the free roadside to tow it home for a charge.

Perhaps in very flat Florida over the same route you can get a GOM reading that is reasonably accurate. But even the Volt can't know if one is going to go up or down a hill or if one is going to drive at 30 mph or 70 mph.

It is possible to design a GOM that uses mapping and terrain prediction to give a better estimate of range, but that would be complicated. I like this suggestion better:

...Nissan needs to completely remove the "auto" calculations from the DTE meter. It should just use a fixed 4.0 miles/kWh which will give a number very close to the EPA and will always show a number that is reasonable...

For those who drive the same route in the same conditions day after day, a GOM based on one's own cumulative mileage efficiency would work. But it wouldn't necessarily work for trips different from the standard route. So I'd rather see a base mileage efficiency number that was user adjustable. Then I could use something like 4.1 in winter and 5.2 in summer and the GOM would give pretty good range estimates.


As an aside: a difference between the driving terrain in Florida and Colorado:

^ Florida

^ Colorado

 

[TonyWilliams]

...Nissan needs to completely remove the "auto" calculations from the DTE meter. It should just use a fixed 4.0 miles/kWh which will give a number very close to the EPA and will always show a number that is reasonable...

For those who drive the same route in the same conditions day after day, a GOM based on one's own cumulative mileage efficiency would work. But it wouldn't necessarily work for trips different from the standard route. So I'd rather see a base mileage efficiency number that was user adjustable. Then I could use something like 4.1 in winter and 5.2 in summer and the GOM would give pretty good range estimates.

The ELM327 / Turbo3 app does exactly that. It gives a Distance To Empty (DTE) based on a default 4.0 miles per kWh (that you can adjust). It becomes "rated range".

For somebody in Florida, the DTE in this program doesn't get any better. With no terrain to fight with, you'll know that tooling down the freeway at 65 mph will almost exactly equal the 4 miles per kWh economy of the default value of the app, and the range will be VERY accurate.

It is also adjusted for temperature, although that's not a big deal in Florida. The pictured one below has been adjusted to 4.5 miles/kWh economy.

 

[pachakutek]

Many threads about this... I've had my new car for 2wks now, and yes, I clearly remember seeing in the dashboard range for "93 miles" when I drove off the dealer with only 15miles in the odometer and a full charge.
Then as I drive it to work everyday, I've seen too that number decrease - today it was "78 miles" with a 100% charge.

IMO, I don't think NISSAN is necessarily dismissive on this particular point. I mean their website is clear now and says "75 miles on a single charge*" - so while the "93 miles" I first saw is a bit unreal, I take it that the car's brand new computer didn't know anything about my driving style, and was defaulted to err on that side. (may be it should've default to 50mi and start increasing from there, but 93 is what the chose)

As the computer started learning about my driving style, I think that it has started to adjust to a more realistic range prediction.

There are certainly other areas where NISSAN might have been dismissive, but I don't think this would be one.

My advice, however, to anyone considering to purchase a LEAF is to do all the research on your own before hand (Nissan website, this forum, blogs, reviews, etc) - unfortunately most sales people at the dealers have absolutely no clue of what they are selling. The guys that sold us our LEAF basically knew how to turn it on and put music - but that was it, everything else he said was misleading. However, I knew what I wanted, and from the window sticker, what I was getting. For me he was just there to negotiate price and give me the keys.

* "MY13 EPA range of 75 miles. This 75-mile range represents a blend between the two charging modes of the 2013 Nissan LEAF®, the 80 percent Long Life Mode and the 100 percent Long Distance Mode. Actual range may vary. Use for comparison only."