'16 30 kWh pack - backwards compatibility and warranty?

[tkdbrusco]

Its really a shame that they aren't making the 30kwh pack backwards compatible. This is really gonna sting for resale of the Leaf. We paid so little for our 2015 S that its not a huge deal, but I'd be willing to bet that once the federal rebates run out and they feel that they've been able to sell enough new cars, the early Gen 1 leafs will be offered the 30kwh pack, but this won't be until about 2019 or so. By that point there will be a significant negative environmental impact to having a lot of used leafs with no range left (basically scrap by 100K miles) and there will also be more profit margin in the batteries, so that selling a 30kwh pack at $7500 would actually yield a decent amount of profit. Or better yet, there will be 3rd party mechanics and battery options, so we can tell Nissan to go to hell and put them in ourselves.

 

[TimLee]

With the older LEAFs, each can holds four large pouch-style cells, arranged with two parallel and two series. 48 cans, with 96 cell-pairs, 192 total. 96 x 4.1 volts = 393.6 volts for the pack. ...

With the official release of information on the 2016 30 kWh pack, we now know it has half as many modules and the same number of cells.
So the cells must be arranged four in series now, with two strings of four each in parallel for 8 cells per module to keep the overall series'd modules voltage similar to the 24 kWh pack design?
Which would mean cell balancing is now for four cells in series instead of two?
Are the modules now twice as thick as they were previously, but same rectangular size?

 

[91040]

There is a post on another of these threads with a link to a video that shows modules being manufactured. It does look to be doubled up.

Found it: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20548&start=10#p436864

 

[Valdemar]

Its really a shame that they aren't making the 30kwh pack backwards compatible. This is really gonna sting for resale of the Leaf. We paid so little for our 2015 S that its not a huge deal, but I'd be willing to bet that once the federal rebates run out and they feel that they've been able to sell enough new cars, the early Gen 1 leafs will be offered the 30kwh pack, but this won't be until about 2019 or so. By that point there will be a significant negative environmental impact to having a lot of used leafs with no range left (basically scrap by 100K miles) and there will also be more profit margin in the batteries, so that selling a 30kwh pack at $7500 would actually yield a decent amount of profit. Or better yet, there will be 3rd party mechanics and battery options, so we can tell Nissan to go to hell and put them in ourselves.

Would you buy a 30kwh pack? When? They probably looked at the number of people (likely 0) who bought a 24kWh replacement pack out of pocket and decided not to waste any resources on making it compatible right now and instead deliver 2016 quicker. It sucks, but really, do we really think people will pony up 8-9 grand on a pack to put it into an aging car that's worth $2,000? They might make it compatible later on, which is fine as I think there wouldn't be many takers if any at all for the next 2-3 years anyway.

 

[XeonPony]

Its really a shame that they aren't making the 30kwh pack backwards compatible. This is really gonna sting for resale of the Leaf. We paid so little for our 2015 S that its not a huge deal, but I'd be willing to bet that once the federal rebates run out and they feel that they've been able to sell enough new cars, the early Gen 1 leafs will be offered the 30kwh pack, but this won't be until about 2019 or so. By that point there will be a significant negative environmental impact to having a lot of used leafs with no range left (basically scrap by 100K miles) and there will also be more profit margin in the batteries, so that selling a 30kwh pack at $7500 would actually yield a decent amount of profit. Or better yet, there will be 3rd party mechanics and battery options, so we can tell Nissan to go to hell and put them in ourselves.

Would you buy a 30kwh pack? When? They probably looked at the number of people (likely 0) who bought a 24kWh replacement pack out of pocket and decided not to waste any resources on making it compatible right now and instead deliver 2016 quicker. It sucks, but really, do we really think people will pony up 8-9 grand on a pack to put it into an aging car that's worth $2,000? They might make it compatible later on, which is fine as I think there wouldn't be many takers if any at all for the next 2-3 years anyway.

That sort of thinking does not translate to ev's as they do not age in the same way. So it is well worth puting a new battery in an old ev. If my pack holds out till the 30kwh packs become capable to be transplanted I'd do that with out hesitation.

How ever if it does not then I'd trade in for the 2017 as the nav unit seems allot better in even the 2016.

 

[Valdemar]

That sort of thinking does not translate to ev's as they do not age in the same way. So it is well worth puting a new battery in an old ev. If my pack holds out till the 30kwh packs become capable to be transplanted I'd do that with out hesitation.

I'm not sure it is completely different. EVs have expensive power electronics parts, i.e. the inverter and the OBC, that have a tendency to fail over time, so getting a new pack doesn't magically turn your car into new. Also, how will you feel if after a month after you spent $8,000 to put a brand new spanking pack into your car whose FMV is $2,000 you are in an accident and the car is totaled? It doesn't take much damage to declare a $2k car a total loss. Have fun talking to your insurance company trying to convince them they have to pay you for the pack too.

 

[tkdbrusco]

Its really a shame that they aren't making the 30kwh pack backwards compatible. This is really gonna sting for resale of the Leaf. We paid so little for our 2015 S that its not a huge deal, but I'd be willing to bet that once the federal rebates run out and they feel that they've been able to sell enough new cars, the early Gen 1 leafs will be offered the 30kwh pack, but this won't be until about 2019 or so. By that point there will be a significant negative environmental impact to having a lot of used leafs with no range left (basically scrap by 100K miles) and there will also be more profit margin in the batteries, so that selling a 30kwh pack at $7500 would actually yield a decent amount of profit. Or better yet, there will be 3rd party mechanics and battery options, so we can tell Nissan to go to hell and put them in ourselves.

Would you buy a 30kwh pack? When? They probably looked at the number of people (likely 0) who bought a 24kWh replacement pack out of pocket and decided not to waste any resources on making it compatible right now and instead deliver 2016 quicker. It sucks, but really, do we really think people will pony up 8-9 grand on a pack to put it into an aging car that's worth $2,000? They might make it compatible later on, which is fine as I think there wouldn't be many takers if any at all for the next 2-3 years anyway.

I think that you're 100% right about not many people wanting to buy a replacement pack, but I can think of a scenario. Someone with a 2011 model out of warranty with low bars. In their case they may want to buy a replacement pack, even at $8K if it means that they will be able to drive the car another 7-8 years with it. Especially if they wouldn't qualify for any tax credits on a new one. Let's say that their 2011 leaf is worth $8K, even if the new pack costs $8K, that equates to a $16K car, which is less than you will pay for a new one, even with $10K of tax credits (in CA) if they don't qualify then its a solid decision. Payments on $8K over 5 years would be less than a new lease.

I think that the more significant negative impact is that the decision not to make it backward compatible makes a statement that goes contrary to the positive environmental notion of EVs in general. it says that we don't care about old cars, we would rather sell new one. This isn't necessarily any different than the current ICE scenario, however a typical ICE car will drive more than 150K miles before relegated to a junk yard, but if you have 2011 leafs that are doing the same at half the miles, then you really haven't benefited the environment at all with those cars because it has taken two cars to equal the one ice car and the cost of materials and metals and such make driving the EV a poor environmental decision.

Furthermore as a recent Leaf buyer (2015 model) this says to me that Nissan won't support its owners. So when next March rolls around and I'm able to put a deposit on a Tesla Model 3, I will definitely do so. I won't wait around for Leaf Gen 2, because Nissan has already proved to me that they don't intend to support me in the future.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

this says to me that Nissan won't support its owners. So when next March rolls around and I'm able to put a deposit on a Tesla Model 3, I will definitely do so. I won't wait around for Leaf Gen 2, because Nissan has already proved to me that they don't intend to support me in the future.

Exactly.
I'm definitely putting money down on a Model 3 the second I can.
Tesla is the future, the others are being dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
I've been considering buying a used LEAF when we turn in our lease, but the lack of upgradability seriously reduces our interest in LEAFs. They are clearly not a good long term investment. No upgrade path.

 

[Valdemar]

I think that the more significant negative impact is that the decision not to make it backward compatible makes a statement that goes contrary to the positive environmental notion of EVs in general. it says that we don't care about old cars, we would rather sell new one. This isn't necessarily any different than the current ICE scenario, however a typical ICE car will drive more than 150K miles before relegated to a junk yard, but if you have 2011 leafs that are doing the same at half the miles, then you really haven't benefited the environment at all with those cars because it has taken two cars to equal the one ice car and the cost of materials and metals and such make driving the EV a poor environmental decision.

Well, the 24kWh pack is available any day of the week from your friendly local dealership. Yes, the message could have been better but I don't think there is much drama.

Furthermore as a recent Leaf buyer (2015 model) this says to me that Nissan won't support its owners. So when next March rolls around and I'm able to put a deposit on a Tesla Model 3, I will definitely do so. I won't wait around for Leaf Gen 2, because Nissan has already proved to me that they don't intend to support me in the future.

While I'm with generally with you I'm going to give Nissan a couple more years to prove me wrong before crossing it completely off my list for the foreseeable future.

 

[TimLee]

...

That sort of thinking does not translate to ev's as they do not age in the same way. So it is well worth puting a new battery in an old ev. If my pack holds out till the 30kwh packs become capable to be transplanted I'd do that with out hesitation.
...

You might, but very few people will put $7,000 into something with a market value of <$3,000.

I still like the 1994 Taurus SHO parked in my yard.
May be worth $1,400 to $2,000.
Would take $3,000 to get in reasonable reliably driveable for 50,000 miles condition, and $6,000 to $7,000 to get in condition where I would be willing to use it for another 100,000 miles.
But I and most people are unwilling to spend either of those amounts.

It is sad, but the situation with LEAFs will be similar.
But unfortunately they will have a lot less miles on them than the 140,000 miles the Taurus SHO has.
Not environmentally very sound.

Maybe the 2016 30 kWh pack LEAFs with 8 year 100,000 mile 66.25% capacity warranty will do better.
Time will tell.

 

[Valdemar]

I can see independent shops getting into the business of harvesting modules off wrecked Leafs and offering a refurb battery service. While this may not provide an upgrade path to 30kWh, it is conceivable that it will be the preferred method of extending useful life of the car rather than buying a brand new pack, small or big.

 

[nerys]

I want the 30kw pack. I want it now. I am ready to sign the loan docs right now for it.

I owe $16k on my car. my battery is already down to 18.1kwh (lost .4kwh my first year the rest was from PO)

I can not use the heat on my work commute to south jersey (54 miles one way I charge at work) below 28'

I have to keep a backup ICE at my second job if I run low (not often but a few times its happened in the winter)

I would GLADLY pay $7500-$8500 (adjusted from the $5500 for the 24kwh pack)

it would be a nearly 50% range increase for me! that would be simply HUGE. even after 5 years of degrade I would still have more range than a NEW 24kwh pack has.

that would get me to gen 2 or tesla 3 no problem.

I can't even sell mine to get a newer one sine it is worth so much less than what I owe.

it really pisses me off that they will not be offering an upgrade path. it really is making me reconsider nissan for my next car.

I don't like being burned.

I don't care if the gom reads wrong with the new battery. it is not as if it reads right with my existing battery. slap in the face when I get in the car every day and it says 97 to 102 miles yet I know its going to drop down to 88 in 10 minutes and be at 75 10 minutes after that.

Don't get me wrong. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE my leaf. more than I have loved any other car I own and I own many.

but dammit I want a bigger freaking battery and UNLIKE my damned phone I don't have a few $30k bank notes lying around to just "buy a new one"

 

[Valdemar]

Bought the wrong car maybe? I suspect there are few people in a similar situation.

 

[nerys]

define wrong car.

I could afford "NO OTHER" period. I had no way to know waiting 8 more months would have gotten me a 2015 for less than what I paid for a 2012.

I am very happy with the car. if they never made a 30kwh battery in the same case I would be fine.

but the fact that they HAVE a battery I COULD USE that I am WILLING to pay for and they won't sell it to me and put it in my car.

really really irkes the crap out of me.

I can solve my delivery driving problem. what I Need is less more range and more "faster charging" once I Have enough cash I plan to get a brusa charger for it.

but faster charging does not fix my problem for my longer commute. plus the gom fooled me. it said I could go 86+ miles.

I figured even with a 40% cut from heater and cold temps I can still make 54 miles right? nope.

it is not bad. I am totally fine with it. I don't get cold or anything (preheat on umbilical power before leaving)

what is aggravating is KNOWING making my life much easier is possible but they refuse.

it is not the CAR that annoys me. I FREAKING LOVE my leaf. their refusal to have an upgrade process is what annoys the crap out of me.

 

[Valdemar]

define wrong car.

2012 Leaf is a wrong car for a 54 mile one-way commute, even more so in places with real winters The Leaf was already scrutinized to every detail on this forum when you bought it, so unlike in 2011 it was easy to make an informed decision if the car would work for your needs. Now you're upset Nissan will not sell you a larger pack, I hope you didn't buy the car planning for a battery upgrade the following year.

 

[nerys]

I was planning for an upgrade in 3 years.

 

[Valdemar]

I was planning for an upgrade in 3 years.

Who knows, they might allow it later. Time will tell.

 

[ydnas7]

And taken away a lot of the incentive to buy a new Leaf. They would rather sell new cars, than parts...

are you joking? Car companies love love love selling parts, the markup is much greater than selling a new vehicle.

what they don't like doing is taking on risk for themselves, if an earlier model has not been validated, yada yada yada for a newer component, then its real expensive to them, even if it has zero benefit overwise.

Tesla claims it is making no profit on a $29k 70kWh battery for the Roadster, that involves reuse of the old case etc.
would LEAF owners appreciate a new 30kWh cell placed into their old packs for only 30/70 *29k. thats only $12.5k, to get the same price per kWh as Tesla gives.


for the same $12.5k they could simply upgrade to new model, without the validation risks/costs.

In the roadster case Tesla is hand packing the cells one or two packs a week. In the Nissan case the packs are made on an assembly line en mass thousands at a time.

It's not the cells that cost so much. There is also the hand labor with engineering, validation and testing for a low volume product.

I don't pretend to know Nissans costs to make a 30 kWh pack but I don't think bringing up the roadster pack upgrades are a fair metric for comparison.

FWIW
Early Tesla Roadster owners can't upgrade to the latest 70kWh pack, even though they had already paid deposits. Its only available for later Roadsters
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/40042-Roadster-3-0/page97

I just think people have an unrealistic expectation of what auto industry costs actually are.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/12/how-much-does-homologation-really-cost/

 

[XeonPony]

FWIW
Early Tesla Roadster owners can't upgrade to the latest 70kWh pack, even though they had already paid deposits. Its only available for later Roadsters
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/40042-Roadster-3-0/page97

I just think people have an unrealistic expectation of what auto industry costs actually are.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/12/how-much-does-homologation-really-cost/

Given the costs all the more reason for them to make the battery back wards compatible and whore it out as much as possible for hard out of pocket cash!

 

[Essiemme]

I'm disappointed with Nissan as well, NOT with the car!

They should have thought on the upgradability issue. This really looks like a greedy decision from the japanese company.
This will make me go for the Model III as well. Sorry Nissan.

The car still does what it was supposed to do back in 2011, it saved us lots of money, money that was not thrown away for terrorism.

sm
MK1 - 2011
More than 125.000 Kms
9 bars, about 16.1 KWh capacity