14 months into owning and I'm pretty sure it's time to sell...

[Tsiah]

If you already have an Odyssey, you might as well try just using that everyday and sell the Leaf.
It sounds like you have found enough reasons to sell the Leaf.

Having 1 car would put us in quite a bind. If we could do 1 car I would have sold both cars and bought a used model X by now.
$8-$10/day in gas to go to work plus whatever other driving would really suck.

 

[Tsiah]

How low can the battery capacity go and still serve your needs ? If for example you can get 100k miles from the car then it works out to under ~ 17 cents per mile for combined fuel+capitalization cost. You are not going to come anywhere near that low a cost in an ICE.


Your call, but it sounds like a rationalization

Honestly to run between home and work it could get pretty low before it was an issue. For the rest of our use, 70-80%... Much lower and it would be not very useful.
If it were say, a Civic that I purchased for $17,000, I could put 140-180,000 miles on the car turn around and sell it in eight years for $5,000 after it's done its duty and it's paid off then go buy something else. With the leaf if I drive at 8 years and put the same miles on it I probably won't be able to give it away at the end of that use. Granted the cost of fuel and maintenance over that time is going to be significantly lower.

Why is making sure everyone is comfortable in the car that we use several days a week a rationalization?

 

[Lothsahn]

Two years ago, I had to put $6,000 in repairs into my Odyssey. I didn't even have the transmission fail. The transmission repair on an Odyssey alone is over $5,000.

I know. That's why I specifically looked for one outside of the affected years. I replaced a few of those transmissions while I worked for Honda and it's definitely not a job you can do at home.

Yeah, but the $6,000 WASN'T a transmission that failed. I had to replace the AC compressor, alternator, timing belt tensioner ($300, because it was hydraulic)--which had trashed my timing belt, so new timing belt at that point, serpentine belt tensioner (again, a $300 hydraulic part), plus serpentine belt, and a few suspension components (forget which ones). One of the hydraulic engine mounts was also starting to fail, and it was ~$700 plus labor. I deferred the repair on the engine mount and never fixed it before I sold the vehicle.

If I had done my own labor, the above repairs would probably have been about $2500, but I paid a shop to do it. The parts were all super expensive compared to my Town and Country, and that was pretty much the nail in the coffin for my Odyssey.

All the hydraulic crud (engine mounts & belt tensioners) led to premature failures and super expensive repairs. I will likely never buy another Honda simply due to replacement part complexity and cost. My Town and Country had a timing chain (never failed) and the serpentine belt tensioner was $35. I just replaced ALL the engine mounts on my other car, and the total cost (including labor) was <$700.

I think the real difference is you do your own repairs. That makes the cost of keeping an older vehicle (even if unreliable) on the road low. So you're not seeing the full benefit of the higher reliability of EV's that I am.

 

[Lothsahn]

How low can the battery capacity go and still serve your needs ? If for example you can get 100k miles from the car then it works out to under ~ 17 cents per mile for combined fuel+capitalization cost. You are not going to come anywhere near that low a cost in an ICE.


Your call, but it sounds like a rationalization

Honestly to run between home and work it could get pretty low before it was an issue. For the rest of our use, 70-80%... Much lower and it would be not very useful.
If it were say, a Civic that I purchased for $17,000, I could put 140-180,000 miles on the car turn around and sell it in eight years for $5,000 after it's done its duty and it's paid off then go buy something else. With the leaf if I drive at 8 years and put the same miles on it I probably won't be able to give it away at the end of that use. Granted the cost of fuel and maintenance over that time. Is going to be significantly lower.

Why is making sure everyone is comfortable in the car that we use several days a week a rationalization?

Let's do the math vs the Civic, assuming 140k miles:
Initial Purchase: 17k
Sale Value: 5k
Maintenance Cost: 5k (oil changes plus any/all repairs). This number may vary because you do your own repairs but a major failure could make this low.
Tires: 3k
Gas Cost @33mpg: 4242 gallons@$3=$12,727
=$32,727 total cost over 8 years


Leaf (This assumes the battery meets your needs for the full 8 years and does not get replaced under warranty):
Initial Purchase: 17k
Sale Value: 1k (someone will want parts. You will get at least $1k. Honestly, I think you'll get more.)
Maintenance Cost: 3k (assume something breaks, but no oil changes.)
Tires: 4k (Leafs seem to wear out tires faster)
Electricity cost @$50/mth:$4800
=$27,800 total cost over 8 years

Leaf (Battery fails at 110k, right out of warranty):
Initial Purchase: 17k
Sale Value: $5k (because now it has a usable battery)
Maintenance Cost: 3k (assume something breaks, but no oil changes.)
Tires: 4k (Leafs seem to wear out tires faster)
Electricity cost @$50/mth:$4800
Battery cost: 8k (Nissan EV Help Line confirmed this is the 30 kWh cost)
=$31,800 total cost over 8 years

Honestly, even if you have to pay for a new battery, you still come ahead on the math.

Again, if your family hurts sitting in the car, get a new car ASAP when you can afford it.

 

[Tsiah]

Yeah, but the $6,000 WASN'T a transmission that failed. I had to replace the AC compressor, alternator, timing belt tensioner ($300, because it was hydraulic)--which had trashed my timing belt, so new timing belt at that point, serpentine belt tensioner (again, a $300 hydraulic part), plus serpentine belt, and a few suspension components (forget which ones). One of the hydraulic engine mounts was also starting to fail, and it was ~$700 plus labor. I deferred the repair on the engine mount and never fixed it before I sold the vehicle.

That is an extremely rare catastrophic failure of something on that side of the engine. The price on that hydraulic tensioner for the serpentine belt is a joke. I was going to replace ours as preventative maintenance while I was doing the timing belt until I saw the price on it...
I'd never own a Chrysler...I hate working on them and the the few I've driven were complete junk. Maybe their newer vehicles are better, but I know my way around Hondas/Subarus/Toyotas and I know they're (generally) very reliable so I stick with them.

 

[Tsiah]

Let's do the math vs the Civic, assuming 140k miles:
Initial Purchase: 17k
Sale Value: 5k
Maintenance Cost: 5k (oil changes plus any/all repairs). This number may vary because you do your own repairs but a major failure could make this low.
Tires: 3k
Gas Cost @33mpg: 4242 gallons@$3=$12,727
=$32,727 total cost over 8 years


Leaf (This assumes the battery meets your needs for the full 8 years and does not get replaced under warranty):
Initial Purchase: 17k
Sale Value: 1k (someone will want parts. You will get at least $1k. Honestly, I think you'll get more.)
Maintenance Cost: 3k (assume something breaks, but no oil changes.)
Tires: 4k (Leafs seem to wear out tires faster)
Electricity cost @$50/mth:$4800
=$27,800 total cost over 8 years

Leaf (Battery fails at 110k, right out of warranty):
Initial Purchase: 17k
Sale Value: $5k (because now it has a usable battery)
Maintenance Cost: 3k (assume something breaks, but no oil changes.)
Tires: 4k (Leafs seem to wear out tires faster)
Electricity cost @$50/mth:$4800
Battery cost: 8k (Nissan EV Help Line confirmed this is the 30 kWh cost)
=$31,800 total cost over 8 years

Honestly, even if you have to pay for a new battery, you still come ahead on the math.

Again, if your family hurts sitting in the car, get a new car ASAP when you can afford it.

Thank you for the look at the numbers.
Maybe it just makes more sense to use the Odyssey when we need to all go somewhere and keep the Leaf for going to work...

 

[rogersleaf]

How low can the battery capacity go and still serve your needs ? If for example you can get 100k miles from the car then it works out to under ~ 17 cents per mile for combined fuel+capitalization cost. You are not going to come anywhere near that low a cost in an ICE.


Your call, but it sounds like a rationalization

Honestly to run between home and work it could get pretty low before it was an issue. For the rest of our use, 70-80%... Much lower and it would be not very useful.
If it were say, a Civic that I purchased for $17,000, I could put 140-180,000 miles on the car turn around and sell it in eight years for $5,000 after it's done its duty and it's paid off then go buy something else. With the leaf if I drive at 8 years and put the same miles on it I probably won't be able to give it away at the end of that use. Granted the cost of fuel and maintenance over that time. Is going to be significantly lower.

Why is making sure everyone is comfortable in the car that we use several days a week a rationalization?

Not sure how a Honda Civic and comfortable can be used in the same sentence, at least for the '08 Civic coupe I used to own. Agreed, I bought it for the same economic reasons when gas went to $4/gal, but it was a go-cart relative the to LEAF for space and comfort. The Civic was eventually replaced with a '13 CRV because I couldn't deal with the daily beating any longer and also considered the Civic as a 2-seater with a nearly useless back seat. Cant' say I agree with the resale numbers stated, at least that's not my experience with mostly spent Honda cars. My own experience is lucky to recover 5-10% of original value in that age & mileage range. Usually it's so nominal that it ends up going to a less fortunate relative after dumping a lot of cash into it to ensure it's safe, reliable, and won't stick them with a major repair bill.

 

[Tsiah]

Not sure how a Honda Civic and comfortable can be used in the same sentence, at least for the '08 Civic coupe I used to own. Agreed, I bought it for the same economic reasons when gas went to $4/gal, but it was a go-cart relative the to LEAF for space and comfort. The Civic was eventually replaced with a '13 CRV because I couldn't deal with the daily beating any longer and also considered the Civic as a 2-seater with a nearly useless back seat. Cant' say I agree with the resale numbers stated, at least that's not my experience with mostly spent Honda cars. My own experience is lucky to recover 5-10% of original value in that age & mileage range. Usually it's so nominal that it ends up going to a less fortunate relative after dumping a lot of cash into it to ensure it's safe, reliable, and won't stick them with a major repair bill.

Not saying the Civic is comfortable, just that I could have purchased one for the same price as the Leaf last year. :Lol: it's definitely not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[smkettner]

Maybe it just makes more sense to use the Odyssey when we need to all go somewhere and keep the Leaf for going to work...

I agree. At least this bides your time to continue to analyze what is best.

 

[SageBrush]

Let's do the math

The LEAF purchase is a sunk cost so the calc has to be keeping the LEAF Vs selling it and buying something else.

 

[Lothsahn]

Let's do the math

The LEAF purchase is a sunk cost so the calc has to be keeping the LEAF Vs selling it and buying something else.

Agreed. I was doing the math on his initial purchase because it sounded like he regretted the purchase. I was not doing a "what now" calculation.

 

[alozzy]

I think it's time to sell while I can still say "it has 60,000 miles and 6 years left of the battery warranty." and before there's a significant noticeable loss in battery capacity. Leafspy says I'm at 91.5% (25.5kWh) now.

Did you get the software update for the BCM yet? If not, you should definitely do that.

Based on empirical evidence, you should find that the SOH metric is much improved:

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/

I'm not suggesting that the software update magically improves the battery life, but it seems to be a genuine bug with the software that was under reporting the battery capacity remaining. The report above relied on dynamometer to measure the true capacity of the battery pack, then compared that with the SOH metric pre and post update. It seems like a sound methodology and that the post update SOH is pretty accurate...

Also worth noting from the report:

The corrected SoH values decline at virtually the same rate as the 24 kWh Leafs. There is no longer any evidence of a statistical difference in reported SoH between the variants once the firmware upgrade is applied over the first 2.5 years since 30 kWh Leafs were manufactured. We therefore conclude that much of our earlier concern about rapidly declining reported SoH stemmed from an instrumentation error rather than degradation of the battery itself

Yes, it is only one report and therefore could be biased, but the methodology does at least seem sound and so I choose to believe the results.

 

[Tsiah]

Did you get the software update for the BCM yet? If not, you should definitely do that.

Based on empirical evidence, you should find that the SOH metric is much improved:

I did. SOH went up to like 102%, then worked it's way back down to where it is now.