100 kW Charging

[Dooglas]

Frankly it is clear to me that a LEAF will not accept charging at that high a rate. More to the point, it does make sense that, if you try, the BMS will reduce the rate of charge to protect your battery. The very fact that the battery quickly moves to an overheated situation and the charge rate is reduced demonstrates this. Surely you are exceeding operational limitations and will inevitably damage the battery. As has been observed many times, high internal temperature is the enemy of lithium ion batteries and will cause them to degrade more rapidly. The same could be said of multiple fast charges per day which force the battery to a high internal temperature.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Any hope that with the new ccs/Chademo adapter we could get 250+ amps from the ccs chargers? (Instead of the singular chademo at the Nissan USA headquarters which can charge the Leaf at 100KW).

 

[coulomb]

Any hope that with the new ccs/Chademo adapter we could get 250+ amps from the ccs chargers?

No chance with any semblance of safety. I've not heard of a CHAdeMO connector that can handle more than 200 A. I would not want to see more than 200 A through an adapter, as it's not practical to water cool the pins of the connectors in the adapter. Plus you have twice the connector losses with an adapter. Both ends of the adapter would be getting quite hot when carrying 200 A. The adapter has a battery in there that could suffer thermal runaway if overheated.

There is also a DC rated contactor inside the adapter (some say there should be two), and that contactor is typically rated at 200 A max. The one I've seen inside one of the adapters (in one of Dala's videos) looks just like an EV200.

I'm actually surprised that they can get 200 A through the adapters, even for short periods of time.

 

[ramisalah]

The chart is not accurate either since the Leaf battery has the Achilles heal of having no cooling. So, one you plug in the battery at the perfect most optimum temperature, the battery's temperature goes up within minutes. This causes the charging rate to drop making that best case very elusive. So many issues, so little time.

 

[ramisalah]

Yes that is correct--and they cover themselves in the tiny fine print and footnotes. For example footnotes number [2] and [4] on the interactive, and [19] and [21] on the pdf version.

View attachment 3908

No where does it say it can charge at a 100kW rate (i.e. 400V, 250A); it only gives the approximate time to 80% when using a 100kW-rated-Chademo unit provided by a third party.

Is it misleading?
Is it ethical?
Is it a go-to source for detailed technical information?

Unfortunately it is just advertising literature with no legal remedy if it appears to not be 100% accurate from an engineering or scientific point of view.

Can you use it to make long road trips? Sure if money and time is not a primary concern.

i can see how you were mislead by the weasel wording and feel your pain.

Thank you for your understanding and empathy.
To add, we do have false advertising laws that can deal with this situation.

 

[BillAinCT]

So, one you plug in the battery at the perfect most optimum temperature, the battery's temperature goes up within minutes.

Have you done this or speaking from what you think happens? I've charged several time at 70kW+ and did not see a temperature bar get added for at least 15 minutes. And that depends where it already is in the currently displayed bar - again, a temp readout would be great. Next time I'll attach LeafSpy.

Your beef is for Nissan's false advertising (or marketing). Nobody here can do anything about this or help you with it. Since you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should consult an attorney. And if they tell you there's not a chance of anything happening, then you can stop pleading here for help that you will not receive. If everyone on this forum agrees with you, yes, Nissan falsely advertised charging at 100kW (yet there is a documentation that 62kW is the maximum charge rate), then what? It doean't change anything, does it? What are you trying to accomplish on your soapbox about false claims by Nissan (that some here don't see it that way)?

Owners who feel screwed by the lack of battery thermal management just didn't do their research. The plus however is the car is simpler without it, and has less to go wrong. A user here (@knightmb) got the temperature into the red (11 bar) and has a better SOH than I do, where I've charged at 70kW+ several times and haven't even seen 10 bars on the temperature. I am not as consistent as he is about 20%-80% SOC but I never leave the car sitting at over 80-85%.

 

[ramisalah]

Have you done this or speaking from what you think happens? I've charged several time at 70kW+ and did not see a temperature bar get added for at least 15 minutes. And that depends where it already is in the currently displayed bar - again, a temp readout would be great. Next time I'll attach LeafSpy.

Your beef is for Nissan's false advertising (or marketing). Nobody here can do anything about this or help you with it. Since you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you should consult an attorney. And if they tell you there's not a chance of anything happening, then you can stop pleading here for help that you will not receive. If everyone on this forum agrees with you, yes, Nissan falsely advertised charging at 100kW (yet there is a documentation that 62kW is the maximum charge rate), then what? It doean't change anything, does it? What are you trying to accomplish on your soapbox about false claims by Nissan (that some here don't see it that way)?

Owners who feel screwed by the lack of battery thermal management just didn't do their research. The plus however is the car is simpler without it, and has less to go wrong. A user here (@knightmb) got the temperature into the red (11 bar) and has a better SOH than I do, where I've charged at 70kW+ several times and haven't even seen 10 bars on the temperature. I am not as persistent as he is about 20%-80% SOC but I never leave the car sitting at over 80-85%.

I see the vested interest to defend Nissan despite all contrary indications and blame the consumer. Is "Gotcha" the goal here? Again, we have laws that govern this. Attacking the consumer is just not right!

 

[knightmb]

Thank you Roger. Your feedback resonates with many Leaf owners. It is glaringly obvious that consumers and consumer blogs are disappointed by Nissan's claims and actual performance. I am not sure why there are members on this board that keep on countering an obvious issue.

That's because they missed the obvious connection of the QC station itself. Everyone thinks that if a QC station is advertised as 100 kW that it magically is identical to all other networks and stations. The reality is; it is not.
I've already tested and documented this exact issue years ago that not all QC charge the same. Some provide very good charging and others are terrible. All of the complaints in this topic are from using poor QC stations because the ones I've tested ranged from Amazing to Poor in speed. The data is out there, but the ones complaining in this forum want to ignore it for some reason? I'll pin that blame on the bloggers and youtubers out there too for being dishonest with their charging reviews and research.

Read this topic from start to finish for your research.
20% to 80% SOC is quite doable in under 45 minutes, provided you have a QC station that is up to it.
https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/qc-charging-study-nissan-vs-ea-vs-evgo-vs-chargepoint.33644/

 

[RogerRDalTx]

That's because they missed the obvious connection of the QC station itself. Everyone thinks that if a QC station is advertised as 100 kW that it magically is identical to all other networks and stations. The reality is; it is not.
I've already tested and documented this exact issue years ago that not all QC charge the same. Some provide very good charging and others are terrible. All of the complaints in this topic are from using poor QC stations because the ones I've tested ranged from Amazing to Poor in speed. The data is out there, but the ones complaining in this forum want to ignore it for some reason? I'll pin that blame on the bloggers and youtubers out there too for being dishonest with their charging reviews and research.

Read this topic from start to finish for your research.
20% to 80% SOC is quite doable in under 45 minutes, provided you have a QC station that is up to it.
https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/qc-charging-study-nissan-vs-ea-vs-evgo-vs-chargepoint.33644/

Thanks for posting that thread, I missed it when I was researching QC. Good information, now I'm not quite so discouraged by my first QC charge at evgo. Next time I'll try a different network.

 

[hornstudio]

Some say charging with a 100kW charger for 15 Minutes causes less heat than charging with a 50kW charger for 30 minutes. Might be true to my experiences.

I do nearly 200 miles and the recharge ONCE for another 200 miles. Then rest/sleep. And I dont have to deal with liquid cooling and stuff. OK for me.

 

[cwerdna]

I see the vested interest to defend Nissan despite all contrary indications and blame the consumer. Is "Gotcha" the goal here? Again, we have laws that govern this. Attacking the consumer is just not right!

Not defending Nissan at all. Don't know what "contrary indications" there are. I still haven't seen you provide written proof from Nissan claiming that Leaf Plus can charge at 100 kW, let alone for sustained periods of time.

As has been pointed out, Nissan has listed ideal times to reach a certain %. https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/2022-nissan-leaf-press-kit in the specs tab says for Plus "Quick Charge 45 min to 80%". If you look at the video at https://insideevs.com/news/495913/nissan-leaf-dc-fast-charging-curve/, he got from dead to 80% in 47 minutes.

If you wanted fast DC charging, Leaf is the wrong vehicle. It isn't that hard to find DC fast charging curves of numerous other EVs and DC fast charge tests. (Yes, it can be harder if there are different packs on a given model (e.g. BZ4x allegedly has Panasonic packs on FWD cars while AWD and Solterra (AWD only) have slower charging CATL packs).

LG Chem-based VW ID.4 is capable of 130ish kW and SK battery ones are faster.

E-GMP HyunKias like Ioniq 5 and 6 + EV6 are even faster, esp. on 800 volt chargers. You can see at 0:35 of , he's at ~220 kW. At 3:33, you can see he got from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes. 55.67 kWh were dispensed.

Taycan and Audi e-tron GT are faster in that dept but pricey.

has a crazy high peak but is a super inefficient vehicle.

 

[FrancoVecchi]

Honestly, I'm a little surprised to read that the QCs don't heat up the Leaf battery much. In fact, if you do just one quick charge in the day there is no problem, but if you do more you are likely to run into performance limitations. Furthermore, Leaf batteries kept hot for a long time also tend to deteriorate mechanically, and when they heat up they take a long time to cool down. I know of several taxis in Rome (relatively hot climate) that have had dead batteries (many swollen modules) already after 3-4 years. They did several QCs a day although not in depth. The battery temperature sensors are positioned externally to the modules, therefore they detect the temperature with a delay and show lower peak values than those inside the modules.
Having said that, I also have a Leaf and I'm very happy, but I wouldn't charge it at 100KW, I wouldn't want to go beyond 50, even if in Italy it is practically impossible to find Chademo charging stations that go beyond 45-50kW. I also don't often take long trips, and the few times I do, I often stop out of habit and I've never had to do the equivalent of more than two deep DC top-ups a day.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

My.experience is ypu cam do about 1.5 DC charges in warm weather or 2 in cooler weather without much fall off of charging rate. I have had some trips where I above 50KW for 3 back to back charges, but lots of variables to unpack there.

 

[Eddie16]

For those who own Leaf's with 62 kWh batteries, can you let us know the best charging rate you got using a 100 kW charger and under what conditions. For me, the best rate I got was 48 kW/h and that was very short lived as the rate dropped to the 30's within a couple of minutes. That makes me wonder why even bother looking for 100 kW chargers when I get the same rates as a 50 kW charger and why does Nissan go to lengths to advertise the 100 kW chargers with EVgo?

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to charge a battery which doesn't have active thermal management, at a 50kw rate? Or is this something you do only occasionally while on an unexpectedly long trip?

 

[BillAinCT]

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to charge a battery which doesn't have active thermal management, at a 50kw rate? Or is this something you do only occasionally while on an unexpectedly long trip?

I have yet to see anything published that shows significant damage is done to the latest Nissan battery chemistry using DCFC. If the battery is getting too warm, then the charge rate may significantly drop off. I have never had 9 temperature bars. 10 is the last white bar and 11 and 12 are red. I generally don't see charge drop off more than 20-25%. I think much of the complaining is from the Gen 1 Leafs. This post includes a user who has gotten into the red temperature bars several times and his SOH is quite good for the age and mileage of his Leaf.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

We have 2 Leaf Pluses. One I charge at home foe commuting, and another that my daughter uses at college and only DC charges. Both 2019s. The DC charged Leaf has 4% higher SoH after similar miles.

 

[FrancoVecchi]

We have 2 Leaf Pluses. One I charge at home foe commuting, and another that my daughter uses at college and only DC charges. Both 2019s. The DC charged Leaf has 4% higher SoH after similar miles.

As i wrote, 5 taxi driver buyed 5 leaf Acenta in the same time and after 3 and 4 year all of them trashed the car because of battery all modules of battery was inflates. They was make only short fast charges , Rome is hot climate in summer, and they was'nt advised about to look battery temperature. Probably there battery was hot for the most part of the time every day.
If your wife charge in DC often but temperature battery do not rise a lot, and have time to cool , the battery can has a long duration.

 

[knightmb]

As i wrote, 5 taxi driver buyed 5 leaf Acenta in the same time and after 3 and 4 year all of them trashed the car because of battery all modules of battery was inflates. They was make only short fast charges , Rome is hot climate in summer, and they was'nt advised about to look battery temperature. Probably there battery was hot for the most part of the time every day.
If your wife charge in DC often but temperature battery do not rise a lot, and have time to cool , the battery can has a long duration.

More than likely, they didn't real the manual and most people are not honest about how they treat their vehicles. Not saying, they did or they didn't do any vehicle research, but the life of any vehicle being driven as a Taxi destroys gas and EV vehicles alike, so it's not surprising to hear this about any vehicle in service as a taxi.

 

[FrancoVecchi]

More than likely, they didn't real the manual and most people are not honest about how they treat their vehicles. Not saying, they did or they didn't do any vehicle research, but the life of any vehicle being driven as a Taxi destroys gas and EV vehicles alike, so it's not surprising to hear this about any vehicle in service as a taxi.

yes, they buyed a stock of 5 cars from nissan dealer but he haven't advise them about battery management. In italy people do not like read heavy manuals ... ;-)

 

[knightmb]

yes, they buyed a stock of 5 cars from nissan dealer but he haven't advise them about battery management. In italy people do not like read heavy manuals ... ;-)

Don't feel bad, same problem in the USA. Some years back, a guy posted up on FB about his 40 kWh Leaf that he would run in the "red" temperature bars every day, all day (Lots of QC + hard driving) in some AZ heat and complained it lost a bar and range. We were all surprised the battery survived even that long.

I look at it this way. If I bought a small, efficient gas vehicle and then decided to drive it as a taxi service; I wouldn't then skip oil changes and air filter changes and belts and spark plugs only to complain later that the engine died and the car manufacture sucks because I didn't know it needed "maintenance" every few weeks. Same thing with an EV, if I'm going to drive it beyond the normal intentions of the manufacture, I would want to know everything about it first to help prolong it's life as it's important for business. If I chose the "Leaf" as that vehicle, I would know that I can't just run back to QC everyday along with running in the red temperature bars all day and not expect some issues later on. To use the Leaf as a taxi would mean making sure it's L2 charged to 100% right before a shift starts to keep the battery heat down and when it is depleted, put it back on the L2 and switch to another Leaf so the other can charge. Many police departments that use the Leaf already do this, they don't QC back to back for officers, they come back to the station, switch to another Leaf that is ready and leave the other to L2 charge again.