100 kW Charging

[BillAinCT]

Now you're trolling...

They claim the maximum 62.5kW DC charging here. Which we all agree by now is wrong. They also claim "A revised CHAdeMO 2.0 specification allows for up to 400 kW by 1000-V, 400 A direct current." They are stating CHAdeMO is capable of much more than the Leaf can do and IMO that could and should be left unsaid since they already stated (incorrectly) that 62.5 kW is the maximum so what the point of saying there is more available than can be used?

 

[ramisalah]

Please post a Nissan statement where they claim that the Leaf is able to charge at 100kW. Because they direct you to 100kW EVgo chargers doesn't even imply that but if you want to read it that way that's you making the claim, not them.

https://blog.greenenergyconsumers.org/blog/a-buyers-guide-to-ev-charging-speeds
The blog at the above, as can be seen in the tables reads the 100 kW mention as a claim of a charging rate. This is how every other manufacturer interprets the value when stated in a manual and how every consumer interprets it as well.
If Nissan is stating that their mention of 100 kW charging is not a claim of a rate, that is exactly in line with my statements. Nissan claims 100 kW and Nissan cannot stand behind it so they argue about units.

 

[rlbagnall]

I'm in the UK and bought a 62kwh Leaf e+ in 2020. At purchase it was advertised as having a DC charge rate of 100kw, but there were no >50kw Chademos around so I couldn't test it. In 2021 I finally tried charging on an 80kw charger, and saw a max charge rate of 47kw displayed in car (at 40% charge, cool battery temp). Then noticed that Nissan UK had stopped advertising 100kw for this model, although it seemed that the spec in the USA was still 100kw. I guess that Nissan cut the max charge rate to avoid warranty claims.
I'm interested if any other 62kwh owners in UK and USA can confirm my observations. It sounds as if some US owners also see max charge rates of 48kw.
I note that Nissan USA Leaf Brochure still seems to claim 100kw. See:
https://www.nissanusa.com/interacti...-cars/leaf/leaf-charging-ownership/index.html
60 kWh battery: EPA-estimated range of up to 212 miles[6, 7]
Approx. 45 minutes = 80% charge[2] (100 kW)
Approx. 60 minutes = 80% charge[2] (50 kW)
The Nissan UK site now only offers the 40kwh Leaf. No sign of the 62kwh.

 

[ramisalah]

Now you're trolling...

They claim the maximum 62.5kW DC charging here. Which we all agree by now is wrong. They also claim "A revised CHAdeMO 2.0 specification allows for up to 400 kW by 1000-V, 400 A direct current." They are stating CHAdeMO is capable of much more than the Leaf can do and IMO that could and should be left unsaid since they already stated (incorrectly) that 62.5 kW is the maximum so what the point of saying there is more available than can be used?

Bill, it looks like we are converging. The claim of 62.5 kW would be closer to reality. However, while it is good that this value is updated at the link you shared, it is not mentioned anywhere in the user manual. If it were, this conversation would not have been much easier.
Ultimately, Nissan puts up the 100 kW on the sign (user manual) and upon further looking, it turns out that the real value is much less (62.5 kW). That agrees with the calculation that can be made from the chart on page CH-8 of the manual. And even the 62.5 rate is not achievable since the Leaf battery heats up quickly (as we all know) leading to a slow down in the rate to 50 or less. This makes the mention of the 100 kW to be a pure marketing claim that creates confusion and is not achievable.

 

[nlspace]

That is a Brochure--an advertising and marketing document used to entice purchases. It is not a technical document such as a specifications or datasheet. Plus that Brochure doesn't say that the car can or will charge at 100kW, just gives the approx charging time to reach 80% if using a "100kW" station.

Get a datasheet for the actual cells used in the battery pack to determine what are the maximum limits for charge and discharge as determined by the cell vendor.

 

[RogerRDalTx]

I've had my 2019 SL Plus for about 5 weeks, yesterday I tried an evgo 100 KW charger to test the car's chademo QC. It was disappointing and I'm rethinking an upcoming 280 mile road trip.

The car and battery pack were cool, outside temp mid 70's, my SoH is 91.5%, SoC was 48% when I started. The charger started at 72 KW then quickly dropped within two minutes to under 50 KW, and was in mid-30 kW after about 5 minutes. When my leaf hit 75% SoC evgo's chademo was delivering 29 KW.

Charging summary
The total duration of this session was 00:25:19 and the energy charged was 15.480 kWh. Your total cost for the session was $10.87.

So on a summer highway trip with a warmish battery using these numbers as a benchmark, I can see a quick charge taking 60 to 90 minutes to get the battery up to around 80%. This is definitely not a road trip car.

Edited: there seems to be some unnecessary confrontation in this thread. It's a bit off-putting for a new forum number and a new leaf owner. Overall I'm very happy with my car and would buy it again. It fits 98% of my driving needs. But I am disappointed with my first quick charge measurements as they are below what was advertised and specified for the car. And If those numbers hold it will make will make a 250-300 mile road trip 2.5 to 3 hours longer for charging. That's more of an inconvenience than I expected.

 

[ramisalah]

That is a Brochure--an advertising and marketing document used to entice purchases. It is not a technical document such as a specifications or datasheet. Plus that Brochure doesn't say that the car can or will charge at 100kW, just gives the approx charging time to reach 80% if using a "100kW" station.

Get a datasheet for the actual cells used in the battery pack to determine what are the maximum limits for charge and discharge as determined by the cell vendor.

Is the statement that marketing information does not have to be accurate and it is ok if it misleads?

 

[ramisalah]

I've had my 2019 SL Plus for about 5 weeks, yesterday I tried an evgo 100 KW charger to test the car's chademo QC. It was disappointing and I'm rethinking an upcoming 280 mile road trip.

The car and battery pack were cool, outside temp mid 70's, my SoH is 91.5%, SoC was 48% when I started. The charger started at 72 KW then quickly dropped within two minutes to under 50 KW, and was in mid-30 kW after about 5 minutes. When my leaf hit 75% SoC evgo's chademo was delivering 29 KW.

Charging summary
The total duration of this session was 00:25:19 and the energy charged was 15.480 kWh. Your total cost for the session was $10.87.

So on a summer highway trip with a warmish battery using these numbers as a benchmark, I can see a quick charge taking 60 to 90 minutes to get the battery up to around 80%. This is definitely not a road trip car.

Thank you Roger. Your feedback resonates with many Leaf owners. It is glaringly obvious that consumers and consumer blogs are disappointed by Nissan's claims and actual performance. I am not sure why there are members on this board that keep on countering an obvious issue.

 

[BillAinCT]

Because the members countering don't have or see the issues that you are trying to put on everyone. And you seem to think that every Leaf owner should agree with you!

I checked EVgo invoices. My last 5 DCFC's all averaged adding minimum 1kWh per minute on my trip. I got between 28 and 35kWh per session which is what I needed for my destination. I am perfectly happy with that! I do know that SOC was always below 15% and at least 2 times it was under 10%. This was winter and summer (but it wasn't hot out). I have no issues with my Leaf. I am sorry that you do and you should sell it and stop trying to convince everyone that they made the same mistake that you did. Because frankly, many if not most on this forum do not see it like you do.

 

[ramisalah]

Because the members countering don't have or see the issues that you are trying to put on everyone. And you seem to think that every Leaf owner should agree with you!

I checked EVgo invoices. My last 5 DCFC's all averaged adding minimum 1kWh per minute on my trip. I got between 28 and 35kWh per session which is what I needed for my destination. I am perfectly happy with that! I do know that SOC was always below 15% and at least 2 times it was under 10%. This was winter and summer (but it wasn't hot out). I have no issues with my Leaf. I am sorry that you do and you should sell it and stop trying to convince everyone that they made the same mistake that you did. Because frankly, many if not most on this forum do not see it like you do.

Sorry for expecting a company to meet its advertised numbers. That's just the right thing to do. ISO expects companies to do what they say. That's the main principle of honest advertising. If these principles are not upheld, anyone can make any claim.

 

[nlspace]

Is the statement that marketing information does not have to be accurate and it is ok if it misleads?

Yes that is correct--and they cover themselves in the tiny fine print and footnotes. For example footnotes number [2] and [4] on the interactive, and [19] and [21] on the pdf version.



No where does it say it can charge at a 100kW rate (i.e. 400V, 250A); it only gives the approximate time to 80% when using a 100kW-rated-Chademo unit provided by a third party.

Is it misleading?
Is it ethical?
Is it a go-to source for detailed technical information?

Unfortunately it is just advertising literature with no legal remedy if it appears to not be 100% accurate from an engineering or scientific point of view.

Can you use it to make long road trips? Sure if money and time is not a primary concern.

i can see how you were mislead by the weasel wording and feel your pain.

 

[mux]

Lots of uncertainty in this topic, since I've been toying with the CDM 2.0 hardware for a bit, here's some general facts:

- The e-plus ships, as far as we can tell on all firmware versions available in the Netherlands, with a 200A current limit on CHAdeMO. This means the maximum technically possible charge rate is 80.9kW, and the maximum achievable is about 75-77kW. Same as the first-gen Kona and e-Niro.
- It's not a matter of changing out some resistors - to get it to charge at more than 200A, you need to man-in-the-middle the CHAdeMO CAN communications.
- As far as we can tell, only Tritium CCS+CHAdeMO HPCs will deliver more than 200A on CHAdeMO.
- The battery advertises higher charge capability than 80kW, in fact it seems to accept up to 120kW (tested with CCS mods), but only for a very short time. This is in line with our experience with the 40kWh battery, which can also charge considerably quicker than 50kW if you let it.

 

[cwerdna]

When kilowatts of power are added to the battery over a period of time, that is adding kW's per time, kW/hour.

No! It's kW over a period of time --> kilowatts times hours --> kilowatt-hours (it's a dash, not a minus). kW * h --> kWh

"kW/hour" makes no sense. / denotes division (exactly like how you write fractions like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4) or per. kilowatts per hour makes no sense in this context.

Back to fractions: 1/2 = 1 divided by 2 --> 0.5

Charge at 25 kW * 1 hour --> 25 kWh was dispensed.
25 kW * 2 hours --> 50 kWh

50 kWh / 2h --> 25 kW

So, if I draw 1 kW from a battery that includes 62 kWh, the battery will be depleted in 62 hours.

Yes. 62 kWh / 1 kW = 62 hours <-- notice in this case kW / kW cancels out, leaving you h.

62 kWh / 2 kW = 31 hours

The units are not the issue here. Arguing about units is a red herring.

They are when you don't know what you're talking about and keep interjecting nonsensical combinations of units like kW/hour.

The main point stands that the Nissan's Leaf's claim of charging at 100 kW per hour is not achievable.

Again, you used the wrong units. Charging rate is measured in kW.

kW per hour could make sense if you're talking about the acceleration of power (e.g. the megawatt power plant example I gave earlier and how long it takes to ramp up to 1 megawatt output).

https://web.archive.org/web/2017032...files/documents/686294116/DemandEducation.pdf explains demand charges but you can can look at slides 6 and 7.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/kw-and-kwh-what-is-the-difference/ points out:
"A kilowatt/hour is a nonsensical unit in most contexts. If you find yourself using this unit, double-check what you really mean, which is probably kilowatt-hour. Kilowatt/hour means kilowatts per hour. Kilowatt is a measure of power (units: Joules per second ), so you are really saying joules per second per second, or joules per second squared. Which would be a measure of how quickly power is increasing. An acceleration of power if you like. There are very few circumstances where that is a relevant measure. Especially when talking about solar or batteries. Lots of people get kilowatts/hour confused with kWh. Please don’t let it be you. 99% of the time, you’ll mean kWh."

I've not seen any official written statement or specs from Nissan claiming 100 kW charging rate on current or previous Leafs.

View attachment 3907
https://blog.greenenergyconsumers.org/blog/a-buyers-guide-to-ev-charging-speeds
The blog at the above, as can be seen in the tables reads the 100 kW mention as a claim of a charging rate. This is how every other manufacturer interprets the value when stated in a manual and how every consumer interprets it as well.

I've never heard of this page or blog before. It doesn't look like any official Nissan site or marketing nor technical material.

It is glaringly obvious that consumers and consumer blogs are disappointed by Nissan's claims and actual performance. I am not sure why there are members on this board that keep on countering an obvious issue.

Glaringly obvious? I'm not that active here much these days since I no longer have a Leaf but its is certainly not common for folks here and Leaf FB groups to come in here claiming that Nissan has asserted Leaf can charge at 100 kW and then complaining they don't hit it. You're one of the few or only one.

Of bigger concern is that there aren't many >50 or >62.5 kW CHAdeMO chargers in the US. Sometimes, for whatever reason, "50 kW" CHAdeMO EA chargers have their cap lifted and people can achieve 70ish kW or almost 70 kW like https://insideevs.com/news/495913/nissan-leaf-dc-fast-charging-curve/. I can't think of anyone reporting even 80 kW on a Leaf Plus. It's usually a little less, at best.

The next concern is that multiple DC FCs in a day will result in rapidgate and significant slowing of DC FCing to protect the battery since the pack has no cooling other than passive air cooling.

I haven't watched all of but have skipped to points where he charges. For example, at 22:30, his charging rate is down to 25ish kW because his battery is getting roasted. The highest temp sensor value is 47.7 C and lowest is 41.9 C. 41.9 C = 107 F. 47.7 C = almost 118 F.

He did it again in winter with slightly better results: (skip to 23:10). The better (14 hour, 10 minute) result from the winter test is near the bottom of the graph at https://insideevs.com/news/608231/mercedes-eqs-450-1000km-challenge/.

 

[ramisalah]

Here are the areas of feedback I am getting:
- Some objective feedback from Leaf owners who are confirming the issue with Nissan using 100 kW chargers in their advertising as it compares to the real ability to get anywhere near a 100 kW per hour charging rate as most EV manufacturers refer to it by convention.
- Those who decide to counter the convention by investing in debates on what kW, kWh and kW/hour means. We all know what they mean and what the conventions are. I am not sure if those members are Nissan representatives since they seem to be taking the legalese aspect of units rather than agreed upon conventions.
- Those who take a third approach and say "so what if the marketing communications are misleading!" There are two things to say to that:
1. The US has consumer and advertising laws for those reasons.
2. Are we admitting that it is misleading and accepting it as hapless victims?

 

[Chad E. Mo]

"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"

Rarely are there hapless victims... usually it is lack of due diligence to read the terms of the agreement. Emptor Caveat.

 

[nlspace]

My last attempt on this topic,

A 50 or 100kW Chademo station has the capability to provide up to 50 or 100 kW of High Voltage DC charging power--that is the availability of the station.

Nissan advertising says your car can charge from various sources: 120vac, 240vac, and HVDC from either 50 or 100kW stations depending upon your model/options. They then give a table of how long it would take to either fully charge or reach some percentage (80%) for each of these sources. And that is the only technical detail revealed--the length of time to reach the target when using the various sources.

They do not advertise that your battery pack will be able to consume the full power capability from any of these sources, merely that they are available and will meet certain time constraints. If you find they these times are not met, then you may have a legal claim against the advertising.

i hate advertising and go out of my way to avoid it, and this is a prime example of why--it is misleading and trying to get you to spend money on something using flashy pictures, sexy scenes, and catchy phrases. Just look at car and motorsickle magazines, they are nothing but glossy pictures, 0-60 runs and techno blabble to sell more vehicles.

 

[cwerdna]

Here are the areas of feedback I am getting:
- Some objective feedback from Leaf owners who are confirming the issue with Nissan using 100 kW chargers in their advertising as it compares to the real ability to get anywhere near a 100 kW per hour charging rate as most EV manufacturers refer to it by convention.
- Those who decide to counter the convention by investing in debates on what kW, kWh and kW/hour means. We all know what they mean and what the conventions are. I am not sure if those members are Nissan representatives since they seem to be taking the legalese aspect of units rather than agreed upon conventions.

Clearly, you have issues here and do not. kW per hour and kW/hour make no sense when it comes to EV charging.

Which EV manufacturers refer to charging rate in kW/hour or kW per hour? Source?

That's ridiculous to claim that we're Nissan representatives. I've never been employed by Nissan or any Nissan dealer. I've never been on their payroll or any agency of theirs. I don't even have a Leaf any longer nor any Nissan. I've had 4 Nissans before including two Leafs.

I don't know what "agreed upon conventions" you're referring to. kW and kWh are clear. Don't know why you keep interjecting incorrect units.

Charging rate is measured in kW. Full stop. It technically is kilowatt-hours per hour (kWh/h) but as I said h divided by h cancels out, leaving you with kW.

50 kWh / 1h = 50 kW
50 kWh / 2h = 25 kW

100 kWh / 1h = 100 kW
50 kWh / 0.5h = 100 kW

What if you knew a "car expert" and he'd answer questions like this?
How fast did you go?
50 miles

How far did you go?
50 miles per hour or 50 miles per hour per hour

And, every time you tried correcting them, they could pushing back and saying you were wrong?

I've been on MNL since 2011. I've been on various Leaf FB groups for years and am an admin of one of them. I will repeat what I wrote before:
"is certainly not common for folks here and Leaf FB groups to come in here claiming that Nissan has asserted Leaf can charge at 100 kW and then complaining they don't hit it. You're one of the few or only one."

You've not provided any written proof that Nissan claims Leaf can charge at 100 kW, let alone for a sustained period of time. There are other issues that I already pointed out. At this point, who cares? CHAdeMO is on life support in the US. Even EVgo is putting in DC FC installs with 0 CHAdeMO. One such EVgo site had been in the ground for many months here in CA and recently opened.

Looks like a nearby EA site here in CA also opened with 0 CHAdeMO. I guess https://insideevs.com/news/522882/electrify-america-ends-chademo-installations/ now applies to all of the US now and no longer excludes CA.

 

[cwerdna]

ram, please, the rate is 66 kW, NOT kW/h. kW/h is meaningless, kW is itself the rate. In your example of 49.6 kWh / 0.75 h the 'h' cancels out leaving only kW.

(Apologies, I belatedly see that cwerdna has already tried to correct the misunderstanding.)

Unfortunately, after explaining over and over + giving examples, he still doesn't get it. Maybe others need to try.

 

[ride12myplug]

In my 2017 Leaf I once tried to use a 150 kW Chademo Charge Point charger because the two 50 kW Chademo units were occupied. It would turn on after the exchange for about 2 seconds, so wasn't allowed by the car to possibly charge that fast.

 

[ramisalah]

Unfortunately, after explaining over and over + giving examples, he still doesn't get it. Maybe others need to try.

One needs to understands conventions rather than getting stuck on units. No need to explain basics. The general point is clear to all that a 100 kW claim was made to misrepresent. Very few peoples are arguing this point.
A few are arguing the buyer beware aspect. Well, we live in a country of consumer laws and Nissan is an ISO company that expects them as a seller to say what they do and do what they say (meet specs) in a forthcoming and transparent manner.