Only the battery matters

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shortRunsOnly

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2022
Messages
14
Hi all,

I am a student looking for a cheap car to run errands near my house and college. All cars look very expensive these days and I don't have a lot of money to invest.

When looking for regular cheap cars, I got discouraged by all the mechanical issues that can come up and how often I would have to be going to a repair shop.

However, today I found about these old leafs from 2011-2013 which are very cheap, but also have very limited range and did some reading here in these forum. I am very interested because I have a charging station in my apartment complex and very rarely go more than 10 miles away.

What I am trying to understand is why everyone here only talks about the battery problems in these old cars. Is everything else usually fine? If I assess that the current status of a battery is at least 2x the range I need, is that really all I need?

No additional worries about engine failure, transmission, breaks and suspension problems?

Can I just bring a OBD2 reader to a potential seller, get the battery info myself and evaluate everything??

This sounds too good to be true.
 
Welcome to the forum. There are expensive failures in some old Leafs. Some, like the electric brake actuator on the '11-'12 Leaf, can be fixed cheaply enough - just avoid having a dealer replace it. Others, like the resistance heat (aka PTC) unit, can be expensive to fix if the unit has actually failed, rather than its fuse. The '11 and '12 Leaf were made in Japan, and the overall build quality is high - it's just that lousy battery, and now the age of the cars, that make them cars to be avoided - at least by most people. Then there is the early 2013 Leaf: it is the first year of a model refresh, and has several desirable features like a much improved heating system, optional 4 camera parking system, and an 80% charge timer option (also found, in different form, in the '11 & '12 cars). HOWEVER:2013 Leafs built from January through March of 2013 (and at least two built in April) use the same terrible battery chemistry as the '11 and '12 Leafs.

So what you are thinking is largely correct: if you can find a nice, well cared for Leaf, even if it's down to 7 or 8 capacity bars, it could serve your very modest range needs well. Just don't assume that ALL of these cars are bargains for you. I'll link my used Leaf buying guide shortly. What I think you should also consider is one of those poor early build 2013 Leafs. Except for a higher failure rate for the PTC heater (always make sure the heat works, and works well!), and the battery chemistry, these cars are the same as 2013 Leafs with the improved battery.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=26662&p=538030
 
Thanks a lot for the reply. I did take a look at your guide before posting, but I could not find much about anything related to the mechanics, so I understood that it is probably not very important.

I saw there are a lot of things about the battery, and I am trying to understand it better. Just messaged a seller on facebook that is offering a 2012 with 75k miles for $4k. No info on the bars, but she said 38 miles range.

Looks a little bit overpriced, but could work for my needs. Is it likely a 7 bar? Maybe a $3.5k offer would be fair?

(Obsviously after an inspection with that app that you guys mention)
 
The range estimate reading is called the "Guess O Meter" for good reason. It just takes the last few minutes of driving efficiency, and extrapolates that out. If the seller has an easy coast before they park the car, then that estimated 38 miles could really be 25 miles. Or 45. It all depends on those last few minutes of driving. You need to find out the bar count, and then realize that it could be about to lose one, so assume that a 9 bar Leaf is an 8 bar Leaf, etc.

I know that you are eager to acquire a Leaf, now, but keep in mind that they are not all well cared for or trouble free. Take your time, and never offer to buy a Leaf that you haven't at least driven.
 
Do you think I can inspect the car myself to verify it has been well maintained?

Combining CARFAX, LeafSpy scan and a visual inspection?

For ICE that is definitely not enough and I would require professional help, specially if we are talking about cars in the $4k range, which, in case of ICEs, would be definitely above 150k miles and 15 years or more.
 
That's where I might have trouble. Don't really know anyone here that even has an EV. Maybe you guys have a recommendation in NC (Triangle area)

The car I am looking at has 6 bars, just confirmed
 
How hot is the local climate there? A 6 bar Leaf doesn't have a lot of room to lose more bars, but lose them it will if the area is Hot. The seller doesn't seem to realize that they have a Leaf that is worth something only to you. I've made jokes about the Leaf being the perfect NEV (neighborhood EV), but when the range really is just the interior of one medium sized city, the only takers for cars like that are - usually, anyway - people who don't understand how bad the car is, range-wise... Anyway, if they have dealer service records, that can help. Still, I got burned buying a Camry wagon, quite a few years ago: it had plenty of service records, because it was a Lemon...
 
It has been in Raleigh/NC for its entire lifetime. Not sure if this is considered hot or cold honestly.

In the hottest part of the Summer, max is 90, min 70, with occasional days getting to 100.

Winter peak has an average min of 32 and max 50, ocasionally, it goes below that, and very rarely, we get snow.

How good is this weather for the LEAFs?

I could get the CARFAX to look at service history, but I need to make sure this car makes sense given the battery condition, because I would have to pay for the carfax. It has 29 service events over 10 years, so, probably it has been serviced frequently, which could be good or bad depending on the types of service.
 
I'd say Raleigh is on the warm side, not Phoenix by any means but not San Francisco either. A lot depends on how cool the nights are since the battery temp changes slowly and tracks the average 24 hour average temperature in a way. So 90F during the day and 65F at night (typical here) is a lot different than 90F in the day and 80F at night.

In any event, drive the car and ask about it. You can tell a lot from the owner usually. Leftie makes good points about the heater, etc and I have to admit I don't know much about the 2011-2012 Leafs as they are a bit different than the 2013-2017 ones. In 2018 they switched to Gen2 and a lot changed.

On the plus side, not many people want an EV with that low a range. On the minus side, the battery can be parted out for $2500-3000 if one is willing so it's going to be hard to find anything much below that. I'd drive it and if you like it, offer $3500. I doubt there will be tons of people interested in the car so be patient.
 
goldbrick said:
I'd say Raleigh is on the warm side, not Phoenix by any means but not San Francisco either. A lot depends on how cool the nights are since the battery temp changes slowly and tracks the average 24 hour average temperature in a way. So 90F during the day and 65F at night (typical here) is a lot different than 90F in the day and 80F at night.

In any event, drive the car and ask about it. You can tell a lot from the owner usually. Leftie makes good points about the heater, etc and I have to admit I don't know much about the 2011-2012 Leafs as they are a bit different than the 2013-2017 ones. In 2018 they switched to Gen2 and a lot changed.

On the plus side, not many people want an EV with that low a range. On the minus side, the battery can be parted out for $2500-3000 if one is willing so it's going to be hard to find anything much below that. I'd drive it and if you like it, offer $3500. I doubt there will be tons of people interested in the car so be patient.

How difficult is it to sell it for parts? I feel I will likely be the last driving owner of this car, so, I should take into account what to do with it at the end of its life.

Also, I see eveeryone talking about a 35mi range with 6 bars on a 2012 Leaf, but looking at the tables (link at the end), for driving in local neighboorhood roads ( ~40mph), it indicates a nice 55mi range. Is that really accurate?

(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anders-Lundstroem-3/publication/295086987/figure/fig1/AS:861133619593216@1582321662093/Nissan-Leaf-Range-Chart-develop-by-drivers-2-The-table-shows-the-relationship-between.png)
 
If it has 6 bars then the range is more like 40 miles - on a good day...

Sounds like your range needs are modest, but be sure to get a Leaf with the charging package so you can DC quick charge.

Without DC quick charging, having to L2 charge en route will drive you nuts with a 2011/2012 as the L2 charging is half of that of newer LEAFs.
 
alozzy said:
If it has 6 bars then the range is more like 40 miles - on a good day...

Sounds like your range needs are modest, but be sure to get a Leaf with the charging package so you can DC quick charge.

Without DC quick charging, having to L2 charge en route will drive you nuts with a 2011/2012 as the L2 charging is half of that of newer LEAFs.

40 miles with combined side road + highway or assuming < 40mph speeds only?

I have a 7.4 kwh ChargePoint station in my apartment, can I get quick charge there with the package? If not, using L2, how long would it take to fully charge this loser's battery?
 
The pre-2013 Leafs have a s.l.o.w 3.3kw onboard charger, so on L-2 they charge at half the speed of most 2013+ Leafs (S without charge package excepted). It will charge overnight, but having to wait while it charges somewhere would be excruciating...
 
LeftieBiker said:
The pre-2013 Leafs have a s.l.o.w 3.3kw onboard charger, so on L-2 they charge at half the speed of most 2013+ Leafs (S without charge package excepted). It will charge overnight, but having to wait while it charges somewhere would be excruciating...

Initially I thought that, being a 6 bar, the battery is actually a 12 kWh. Dividing that by 3.3 kW -> about 3h30 charge time. (Am I wrong here?)

Also, I found somewhere that it is the SL trim, which has fast charging, so maybe I could do that when charging in other locations (but only on emergencies bc it degrades the battery) ?
 
If the car has QC, then that helps a lot. You are also correct about capacity/charging time. I was going to say that it would take you just as long to charge as it would a good 24kwh Leaf to charge with the faster charger, but that sounds confusing. Until you've been stuck waiting to charge, L- 2 charging seems fast. But you'd be looking at a mile of range added roughly every 5 minutes. At least you wouldn't need a lot of range...
 
I am doing the math here with the charging costs and it really seems to make this car a terrible idea.

I thought that the charging station in my apartment was free to residents, but turns out it costs $2.50/hour. It is a 7.2 kW station, but looks like this car only takes 3.3, so it would still cost me around $9 to fully charge. Assuming a 45mi range (very optimistic), that is 5 mi/$ or basically the same cost of gas in a ICE car with a horrible 15 MPG. YIKES.

I can also fast charge sometimes. But those seem to cost $5 + 0.2/min, which would cost the same as this expensive L2 charger I have at home.

I might be able to charge for free on my school, but that's not very effective because you need to pay parking (unless you go after 5PM) to use the chargers.

Looks like I might have to abort this plan unfortunately, unless I am doing wrong math somewhere or there is a way to get cheaper rates with ChargePoint.
 
I think you are seeing the light...

Unfortunately, if your only charging options are to pay based on an hourly rate then you a better off with a fuel efficient ICE.

It really bothers me that so many public charging stations price on a time rated basis. It's grossly unfair to owners of older EVs that charge slowly, particularly for DC quick charging. Two EVs, side by side at the same charging station, should pay the same amount for a kWh of energy. With time based charging, newer EVs get a huge relative discount. I raised this topic in an older thread and some forum members were unsympathetic and said I was whining...

However, as you have noted, when the cost to charge an EV is as high or higher than fueling an ICE, then there's something far wrong. In many locations, the residential rate per kWh of electricity can be 1/10th what an owner of an older EV pays per kWh at public charging stations. Good luck convincing ICE owners to switch to EVs when this kind of price gouging is happening.
 
If you can get your apartment owner(s) to install free L-1 charging, or even just free outlets for it, you can still drive an EV. Failing that, though, you may want to look at e-bikes and scooters, for now.
 
Offer them $2k. They might want to move it.

If it cost $10 to fully charge, and if you only need 10 miles a day, you could charge every 3rd or 4th day. So a whole year would cost you $900 to $1200 for charging, assuming you can't find or figure out a less costly option. Actually charging every other day from 20 to 80% would be quicker and cost less overall. That last little bit to fill it to Full takes a long time at a slow rate, so wouldn't be worth it to use that system for Full charging.

It looks like they are pricing about 35 cents per kwh and assuming the full pull at 7.2kW. Since the laef is only 3.3kW charger then the actual usage is only like a buck/hour, so they would be making money when you plugged in.

i was driving a 6-bar 2012 about 26 miles a day until it got rear end totaled. It would show about 40 to 45 miles range when fully charged depending upon temperature and how it was driven, but my average was around 4.8 to 5 miles per kwh in town driving.

Maybe you can find a charger priced upon actual usage instead of flat rate?
 
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