Was I wrong to buy a car with CHAdeMO?

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RNeil

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2021
Messages
57
I recently bought a 2021 Leaf. Now I learn that the CHAdeMO interface is being phased out.

I am looking at a trip from Richmond to Shenandoah National Park. This is long enough for me to get range anxiety. I would charge at home and at SNP using J1772, but there are limited opportunities in rural areas. The only intermediate stop that is not significantly out of the way is at Zion Crossroads. Electrify America has 7 CCS/SAE plugs and one CHAdeMO. And EA is phasing out CHAdeMO.

Was I wrong to buy a Leaf?
Is there an adapter that lets me use a CCA charger?
Is or will there be a way to convert my car to CCS/SAE?
 
There is no way to convert, and at present no adapter. Don't get too upset, though: Chademo will be around for about another 10 years, and will likely be reasonably well maintained (if you define that a bit loosely) for another 5. Even when you lose that functionality, you should be able to sell the car to someone who wants it for local use.
 
There's no adapter.

You can blame VW-owned Electrify America for their shenanigans. They weren't forced to be standards neutral in their deployments so they only have 1 CHAdeMO at each site w/current deployments vs. usually 5 to 7 CCS plugs. Sometimes, the ratio is as bad as 1 vs. 19. Obviously, they cared much about their VW AG's business interests (e.g. VW, Audi and Porsche). Oh well.

I don't know which Richmond you're coming from. There are numerous cities w/that name in North America. All I can suggest is checking Plugshare and make sure to have plenty of backups, where possible. Be well-prepared (e.g. logged into apps, RFID cards registered w/network where available (EA doesn't have any), etc.) to charge wherever.

https://www.chademo.com/ is likely alive and well in Japan with over 7700 chargers in a country about 89% (IIRC) the size of California.

You may also run into rapidgate probs on hot days esp. if you plan to DC FC multiple times/day.
 
Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.

Oddly enough though, I'm pretty pleased with CHAdeMO as a backup plan 'B' or 'C' for my Tesla. Southeast NM, Colorado, and Western Canada have or are slated to get CHAdeMO plugs that will nicely supplement the Tesla charging networks. With some luck, Tesla will release a CCS adapter before CHAdeMO is completely useless.
 
I was referring to Richmond, Virginia. Richmond and Charlottesville have many places to charge. Charlottesville is a detour if you are going to Shenandoah National Park. The closer you get to the mountains, the harder it is to find chargers.
 
SageBrush said:
Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.

Oddly enough though, I'm pretty pleased with CHAdeMO as a backup plan 'B' or 'C' for my Tesla. Southeast NM, Colorado, and Western Canada have or are slated to get CHAdeMO plugs that will nicely supplement the Tesla charging networks. With some luck, Tesla will release a CCS adapter before CHAdeMO is completely useless.

Sage is a bit biased against Nissan and the LEAF, as you might notice.

Chademo network in the Pacific NW is fairly good as well. Was better than CCS until a year or two ago. Still a few routes with better Chademo coverage.
 
cwerdna said:
There's no adapter.

You can blame VW-owned Electrify America for their shenanigans. They weren't forced to be standards neutral in their deployments so they only have 1 CHAdeMO at each site w/current deployments vs. usually 5 to 7 CCS plugs. Sometimes, the ratio is as bad as 1 vs. 19. Obviously, they cared much about their VW AG's business interests (e.g. VW, Audi and Porsche). Oh well.

CCS is BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Tesla, Tata Motors and Volkswagen Group

vs

Chademo is Nissan


Europe, China and Japan are different. And I'd expect them to remain different for a long time.

Exactly one open and public standard is what is needed.

Cost, confusion, reliability, availability are all worse with more than one standard.

Chademo was dying before EA started. No point blaming EA.

Oh, and XKCD

https://xkcd.com/927/

standards.png
 
SageBrush said:
Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.
If you mean it’s not suited to be an ONLY car for most people, then I agree. If you mean it’s not suited to be a MAIN car for most people, then I disagree.
 
RNeil said:
I was referring to Richmond, Virginia. Richmond and Charlottesville have many places to charge. Charlottesville is a detour if you are going to Shenandoah National Park. The closer you get to the mountains, the harder it is to find chargers.

Look for places to stay/eat with charging. Examples

https://www.plugshare.com/location/61580

https://www.plugshare.com/location/79979

Any RV park with "50 Amp" power. Like https://www.plugshare.com/location/17153

Some hotels have RV "50 Amp" available in the parking lot.

A nice dinner can take a couple of hours.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/187554

"Tesla Destination" chargers are controlled by the location's management. Ask before you book, some locations have adapters and most will let you charge with an adapter.
 
RNeil said:
And EA is phasing out CHAdeMO.
That EA is phasing out CHAdeMO only means they are no longer installing additional CHAdeMO plugs (outside of Calif). Existing ones should still be around for a long time (probably until the stations break).

RNeil said:
Was I wrong to buy a Leaf?
The LEAF is a great regional car, and a bargain for the price you can get it for. You probably weren't wrong to buy it. It will probably easily handle all your driving, with the exception of long car trips (those requiring multiple DCFC sessions).

It *is* possible to do a longer trip like you are asking about in the LEAF. It's not ideal, because of the slow DC charging speed. It's worse because DC charging is even slower when the LEAF's battery gets hot ("rapidgate"); this is especially a problem when doing more than 1 DCFC on the same day.

The particular round trip you mention (to Shenandoah N.P. and back) looks like this:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=5460e8b5-1a56-4259-b180-3d70b971b636 <<< OPEN THIS LINK
.
va 62.JPG

This plan is for a Plus (62kWh battery). With two DCFC sessions, you are pushing the limits of the LEAF because of rapidgate. If you don't have a Plus, the trip requires 3 DCFC sessions, and ABRP lengths the trip by almost another hour, from 5:57 to 6:49. But I'd worry it would be far longer with the effects of rapidgate. If you don't have a Plus, I would think twice about this trip in your LEAF.

FWIW, same trip takes over 90 minutes less in a Model 3 LR, with just one 7 minute charging session on the return. But you would only buy into the cost of a Tesla if you regularly needed the flexibility to do longer trips in that car.
 
WetEV said:
...

CCS is BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Tesla, Tata Motors and Volkswagen Group

vs

Chademo is Nissan

Mitsubishi is also Chademo. (now owned by Nissan)

To me the CCS connector is just butt-ugly, who would pick such an ugly complex oddball shape--probably a designer with no sense of aesthetics for sure.

Want to see a nicely designed and shaped connector? just look at tesla.
 
Toyota is also Chademo. They just don't have a full ev in the US. Their Europe/Japan Lexus is Chademo. Xpeng also has a Chademo car in Europe.

Outside of the US the Prius Prime (I believe Rav4 Prime as well) has a Chademo option.


Wetev, the 271 mile journey you posted could be accomplished in a Leaf S+ with just one 20ish minute stop at Fredericksburg on the way back. The SV+/SL+ would need to stop for 20 or minutes in each direction. This all assumes that that Chademo is working.
 
To me the CCS connector is just butt-ugly, who would pick such an ugly complex oddball shape--probably a designer with no sense of aesthetics for sure.

I've never used a CCS plug, but the Chademo plug seems very large and (with the cable) heavy. Is CCS the same?
 
WetEV said:
CCS is BMW, Daimler, FCA, Ford, Jaguar, General Motors, Groupe PSA, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, MG, Polestar, Renault, Tesla, Tata Motors and Volkswagen Group
I know of no vehicles shipping in the US with CCS from Daimler, FCA, Groupe PSA, Mazda, MG, Renault, Tesla or Tata. Some don't even ship any vehicles in the US (e.g. MG, Renault, Tata). Some have stopped shipping vehicles w/CCS (e.g. Clarity BEV is dead). Some still haven't yet (e.g. Daimler and Mazda). Some were/are only shipping vehicles w/CCS in CA/CARB emission states + maybe a single digit # of others (e.g. HyunKia and Honda, formerly).

As for the companies you name, in some markets like Japan, they have or are putting on CHAdeMO inlets on their cars such as the BMW i3, VW e-Golf and Mercedes EQC. I've posted about these numerous times. I physically saw the last two at Tokyo Motor Show and took pics myself of their CHAdeMO inlets. The Fit EV had CHAdeMO but only on the JDM version.

You don't think VW-owned EA's shenanigans is what pushed a bunch of automakers over to CCS in the US, including Nissan for the Ariya? Do you think the CHAdeMO situation would be the same if EA installed an equal ratio or less stilted one at each site? What if they installed 7 150+ kW CHAdeMO at each site and 1 50 kW CCS instead?

What other major non-Tesla charging provider in the US before EA began installing or in the past two or three years has been taking steps like EA to basically make consumers and automakers want to shy away from CHAdeMO?
 
oxothuk said:
SageBrush said:
Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.
If you mean it’s not suited to be an ONLY car for most people, then I agree. If you mean it’s not suited to be a MAIN car for most people, then I disagree.

And I would disagree with both of you as it has been my only car for nearly 10 years. I've made dozens out of out-state, 600 mile trips on my Gen 1 Leaf, going to Gen 2, just as easy as driving a gas car around, even more chargers now. Of course, all of that is because of the good coverage where I am. If I lived in a charging desert, then I would agree with you both. ;)
 
WetEV said:
Chademo was dying before EA started. No point blaming EA.
Nothing is dying about Chademo, only the usage. It has plenty of support for higher power charging and can duplicate CCS power levels. The industry has decided to go with CCS (including Nissan), so it's really more of a forced choice by the industry, not by consumers. Consumers don't care what the plug looks like (within reason I guess), as long as it works. If all those major manufactures had decided to go with Chademo, that would still work just fine for quick charging, consumers would not have noticed the difference.

Instead, you had two competing plugs (and protocols) and the bigger group won. That's like fighting over which USB2 vs USB3 on computers.

With so many Chademo EV out there already and the push to get away from it, someone, somewhere will probably come up with an adapter one day. Will it be cheap? Probably not at first, but as with time and industry, someone might figure out a way to produce it for cheaper or just have them on existing stations already, maybe even for rental, who knows? It's the future.... :shock:
 
LeftieBiker said:
To me the CCS connector is just butt-ugly, who would pick such an ugly complex oddball shape--probably a designer with no sense of aesthetics for sure.

I've never used a CCS plug, but the Chademo plug seems very large and (with the cable) heavy. Is CCS the same?

Yes, the cable is so heavy, it has to have a tether support from the station a lot of times if it is the liquid cooled or high powered lines. The under 150 kW CCS seem to have cables about as heavy and thick as the Chademo. The Chademo 100 kW cables are a little heavier than the 50 kW cables I've noticed.
 
oxothuk said:
SageBrush said:
Between low-ish speed DC charging, rapid/cold gating and the state of CHAdeMO, I think if fair to say that the LEAF is not a general purpose car for most people.
If you mean it’s not suited to be an ONLY car for most people, then I agree. If you mean it’s not suited to be a MAIN car for most people, then I disagree.
The distinction you make is valid although mostly academic.

I just went through this for my family's cars. I love my Tesla Model 3 for its looks and dynamics and all the things that make Tesla fantastic, but it does not replace a truck. I debated selling it for a future Tesla that handles longer trips even better than the Model 3, and buying a truck when a PHEV comes to market. But then I will have spent $30 - $40k for a vehicle that gets used a couple times a month. In the end I realized that a Model Y handles 90% of my 'truck' jobs; a hitch handles 90% of the remainder, and the last 1% will be a rental.

The point here is that an underutilized, corner case vehicle is expensive, so people match their main vehicle to the spectrum of their expected usages.
 
cwerdna said:
I know of no vehicles shipping in the US with CCS from Daimler,

https://electrek.co/2021/05/25/we-drove-daimlers-electric-trucks-and-want-them-everywhere/

Discontinued in 2019 was the Smart Car electric.


cwerdna said:
You don't think VW-owned EA's shenanigans is what pushed a bunch of automakers over to CCS in the US, including Nissan for the Ariya? Do you think the CHAdeMO situation would be the same if EA installed an equal ratio or less stilted one at each site? What if they installed 7 150+ kW CHAdeMO at each site and 1 50 kW CCS instead?

No. In the USA and Europe, Chademo lost any realistic chance of long term survival in about 2011.

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/universal-charging-for-electric-cars/10699/


cwerdna said:
What other major non-Tesla charging provider in the US before EA began installing or in the past two or three years has been taking steps like EA to basically make consumers and automakers want to shy away from CHAdeMO?

Automakers were mostly CCS before EA.
 
SageBrush said:
The point here is that an underutilized, corner case vehicle is expensive, so people match their main vehicle to the spectrum of their expected usages.


When I bought a LEAF in 2012, I thought I was buying a corner case commuter car. Little did I know that the back seat was preferred by the kids, the wife would rather drive or ride in the LEAF, and only longer trips remained in the corner case ICEs we owned.
 
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