Toyota bZ4X (previously included Subaru Solterra)

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cwerdna

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
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Location
SF Bay Area, CA
"Toyota bZ4X is the future of both Toyota and Subaru electric cars
It goes on sale next year"
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/18/toyota-bz4x-electric-crossover-etnga-platform-subaru-reveal/
 
cwerdna said:
"Toyota bZ4X is the future of both Toyota and Subaru electric cars
It goes on sale next year"
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/18/toyota-bz4x-electric-crossover-etnga-platform-subaru-reveal/

I like our Subaru outback, but its going to take a lot of convincing by Toyota that they are serious about EVs given some of the comments they have made, and their total lack of commitment thus far to EVs.
 
Toyota will have to give up on their air cooled battery if they want to be competitive in DC fast charging (and not damage the battery.)
Any news on that front ?

I can easily imagine my wife choosing this car or a Tesla Model Y to eventually replace her LEAF. We were both fans of Toyota and Subaru before we went Tesla, and it is not out of the question that we would renew our acquaintance. Actually, we only left Subaru to improve fuel economy, and we left Toyota to go electric.
 
SageBrush said:
Toyota will have to give up on their air cooled battery if they want to be competitive in DC fast charging (and not damage the battery.)
Any news on that front ?
That brings up a point, any idea if the 16kwh battery in the new Rav4 Prime is just air cooling? It doesn't have QC but still even air-cooled Leafs that lived in hot AZ-type climates that never QC'd degraded pretty quickly.....
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
Toyota will have to give up on their air cooled battery if they want to be competitive in DC fast charging (and not damage the battery.)
Any news on that front ?
That brings up a point, any idea if the 16kw battery in the new Rav4 Prime is just air cooling? It doesn't have QC but still even air-cooled Leafs that lived in hot AZ-type climates that never QC'd degraded pretty quickly.....
I'm pretty sure it is air cooled, but it is nothing like the LEAF. It uses cabin air (that may have been cooled by a heat pump) and pumps it **through** the battery. I owned the Prius Prime which I'm pretty sure has the same system, and I never saw battery temps over 38C. It's a fine system ... until DC (truly) fast charging is considered. They can probably get away with 50 kW (and maybe 75 kW), but I don't consider that kind of EV an ICE replacement.
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
Toyota will have to give up on their air cooled battery if they want to be competitive in DC fast charging (and not damage the battery.)
Any news on that front ?
That brings up a point, any idea if the 16kw battery in the new Rav4 Prime is just air cooling? It doesn't have QC but still even air-cooled Leafs that lived in hot AZ-type climates that never QC'd degraded pretty quickly.....
Do you mean 16 kWh?

Since Prius Prime was mentioned, the JDM version does/did have a CHAdeMO inlet. US ones don't.

It's alluded to in at https://global.toyota/en/detail/15055900/ and listed at https://www.chademo.com/products/evs/.

https://priuschat.com/threads/how-are-the-batteries-on-the-prime-cooled.206371/ is a thread I quickly found about battery cooling on Prius Primes. (Even non-plugin NiMH Priuses as far back as gen 2 (04 to 09 model year) and maybe gen 1 (not 100% sure right now), had some battery cooling. Gen 2 had an intake (from the cabin) next to the rear seats and a battery fan to draw air from the cabin to cool the pack, that was behind the rear seats.)
 
That fan cooling with cabin air didn't help our PIP much. When we got rid of it the degradation was almost exactly 1/3, or 66% remaining.

I think that both Toyota and Subaru are fighting a Rear Guard Action, trying to delay the inevitable until they literally have no choice but to make BEVs...
 
cwerdna said:
"Toyota bZ4X is the future of both Toyota and Subaru electric cars
It goes on sale next year"
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/18/toyota-bz4x-electric-crossover-etnga-platform-subaru-reveal/

I like the styling except for the front end.
 
There some sort of media event going on at Toyota North American HQ today.

https://www.facebook.com/whatdrivesus/ had some pics of posts of the BZ4X interior. I'm busy w/my day job so I've not had time to monitor nor dig.
 
GCC:
Toyota unveils production version of purpose-designed battery-electric bZ4X

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/10/20211030-toyota.html


In Japan, Toyota held the global premiere of the all-new bZ4X SUV, the first model in a new series of bZ—beyond Zero—battery electric vehicles (BEVs). US-specific product details will be shared in mid-November. . . .

. . . the production-ready bZ4X is the first model to be developed by Toyota entirely as a BEV. It is also the first car to be built on the company’s new BEV-dedicated platform. . . .

The bZ4X is available with a new all-wheel drive system with separate electric motors for each axle. Its exterior design reflects both its advanced BEV qualities and SUV status, and debuts a new brand-defining “hammerhead” frontal shape, communicating the car’s strong stance.

The long wheelbase provides excellent accommodation in a light and open five-seat cabin, plus generous load capacity.

Toyota has drawn on almost 25 years’ experience in electrified vehicle battery technology to secure world-leading quality, durability and reliability for the lithium-ion unit which powers the bZ4X. Even after 10 years of driving, the battery is targeted to still operate at 90% of its original performance. (The period of use and mileage is assumed to be 10 years, or 240,000 km (150,000 miles), whichever is shorter.)

With a fully charged battery, expected range is more than 450 km (280 miles) depending on version, exact data to be confirmed later. The bZ4X will also offer advanced technology features, including a solar panel roof to help charge the battery while driving or parked, and third-generation Toyota Safety Sense with new and improved active safety and driver assistance systems. . . .

Compared to the Toyota RAV4, the exterior dimensions illustrate the design benefits inherent in the e-TNGA platform. For example, the bZ4X has an overall height that’s lower by 85 mm, shorter overhangs and a wheelbase that that’s 160 mm longer than the RAV4. The hood line is also reduced in height by 50 mm. Overall agility is reflected in a class-leading 5.7 m turning radius.

Performance. The front-wheel drive bZ4X is powered by a high-response 150 kW electric motor. It produces 204 DIN hp and 265 N·m of torque, enabling 0-100 km/h acceleration in 8.4 seconds and a top speed of 160 km/h (99 mph). In a first for Toyota, the bZ4X uses an e-axle, integrating motor, transaxle and inverter.

The all-wheel drive model has maximum power of 217.5 DIN hp with 336 N·m of torque; top speed is unchanged, while acceleration to 100 km/h is reduced to 7.7 seconds. All performance figures remain provisional prior to homologation.

The system offers the option of “single pedal drive” with a boost in the braking energy regeneration that lets the driver accelerate and slow the vehicle using only the throttle pedal.

Driving range and battery technology. The high-density lithium-ion battery has a 71.4 kWh capacity that is expected to deliver a driving range of more than 450 km (applying to WLTP metrics). Figures depend on version and remain provisional at this stage, prior to homologation.

Thanks to an efficient and effective heating system, including a heat pump, reliability is also maintained in sub-zero temperatures, with only a modest reduction in range compared to competitor models. Similarly, the battery can be fast-charged without compromising safety or service life: an 80% charge can be achieved in around 30 minutes with a 150 kW fast-charging system (CCS2). From Q4 2022, a new 11 kW three-phase on-board charger will be available.

Key to the battery’s quality and durability is multiple monitoring of the voltage, current and temperature, from individual cell level. If any abnormal heat generation is detected, controls are automatically triggered. Countermeasures have been put place to mitigate any material degradation, and there are safeguards in the manufacturing process to prevent foreign matter from entering the battery. In a Toyota first, the battery is water-cooled.

All-wheel drive. Toyota worked with its development partner Subaru in engineering a new BEV all-wheel drive system that draws on the great AWD heritage of both companies.

The AWD model features separate 80 kW motors driving the front and rear axles. XMODE with its different drive modes can also be selected to suit the conditions with settings for snow/mud; deep snow and mud (below 20 km/h); and Grip Control for tougher off-road driving (below 10 km/h).

Steer-by-wire system. The bZ4X will be the first production Toyota to offer a steer-by-wire system: One Motion Grip. Dispensing with the mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the front wheels, this electronic system adjusts the tire angle precisely according to the driver’s intention, and provides more legroom, improving driving position freedom and ease of entry and exit. The traditional steering wheel is replaced with the One Motion Grip-control, making operation smoother and easier, with no need for hand-over-hand turning. Full-lock can be achieved with just a 150-degree turn. . . .

Solar panel roof. The bZ4X’s driving range can be maximized with the use of an optional solar panel roof. This captures solar energy with zero emissions and zero cost to generate electricity to charge the car’s drive battery. It can be used when the car’s ignition is on or off and Toyota calculates that it can harness enough power in the course of a year to enable 1,800 km of driving.

New generation Toyota Safety Sense. . . .

By expanding the detection range of the millimeter wave radar and monocular camera, the performance of each function has been enhanced. New features will include expansion of the Pre-Collision System to recognize vehicles that are oncoming and cutting in; low-speed acceleration suppression; and emergency stopping assistance.

Additionally, a new multimedia system with over-the-air (OTA) software updates will be available.


To say that Tesla's yoke hasn't been getting glowing reviews is a huge understatement, so we'll have to see if Toyota's is any better. Like the Solar roof, but once again they along with everyone else building CUVs have pushed the rear wheels out further towards the end of the car, boosting (rarely used by me) rear seat passenger space but reducing seats-up cargo space. Range is going to be too short, but FC time meets what I consider the minimum standard going forward, and if Toyota actually warranties 90% capacity after 10 years/150,000 miles instead of just 'targeting' it, that will be a huge step forward. I doubt they will, but we'll see.

One thing I don't understand is the decision to use front rather than rear drive for the 2WD model, when you can put the motor in either place. They're not the only ones doing it, bit since there's no drive tunnel to worry about the space benefit of FWD doesn't apply here, and RWd provides better weight distribution and lighter steering, AOTBE. People whoa re worried about traction are going to opt for the AWD version in any case.

Some more details from articles elsewhere:

GCR: https://www.greencarreports.com/new...4x-electric-car-steering-yoke-solar-roof-tech Only 6.6kW OBC, which is inadequate for a full charge in less than 10 hours, and 80% would be close in 8. Also says:
Radiant heating. While there’s a heat-pump to help with chilly weather—something Toyota has offered in some of its vehicles for years—the automaker reaches deeper into the toolkit here. It says that the bZ4X’s radiant floor heat is a first in its vehicles, and we’re not aware of any other model that offers it for the U.S. market. It’s an idea that’s been in the works for years. One such project, headed by IAV and Louisenthal, said that a system using foils integrated around the cabin could help save the energy required to heat the car by up to 20%—but just installing it in the floor could go a long way to that. Toyota will offer seat and steering wheel heaters, too, of course.

There’s a yoke. Yes, like Tesla; and it’s steer-by-wire. While the yoke is initially just for the Chinese markets, it’s due to be fitted on other vehicles launched from 2022 onwards—although to speculate, we wouldn’t peg it as likely for the U.S. for a few years yet. . . .

Bi-directional charging, only in Japan? Toyota says that the bZ4X can be used as a mobile power station, supplying electricity to homes and appliances during natural disasters or power outages, or with home solar, it can be charged with surplus energy from the daytime, to be released by the vehicle to supplement nighttime use. No other automakers—not even Tesla—offer such functionality now as an actual feature set on the vehicle, although Ford plans a comprehensive approach with the F-150 Lightning, Lucid and Rivian have teased a similar ability set. So far based on what Toyota has said, that aspect might only be for the Japanese market.


I'm guessing that last applies only to CHAdeMO-equipped cars, while we presumably get CCS1. Not sure why the first article mentions CCS2, as that's the EU standard.
 
One detail that caught my attention, the Toyota BEV will come with a footwell PTC (resistance heater.)

I find that when I only use the heated steering wheel and heated seats I am quite comfortable ... except for my feet.
I'm curious whether Toyota has solved the winter heat consumption problem for people like me, and how much the total heating consumption will be using this alternative comfort modes instead of generic cabin heating.
 
Even in winter I typically drive (and then X-C ski) in shorts, and while I applaud Toyota for trying the heated floor bit if it saves energy, I like warm air blowing on my legs; heated seats are nice, but not enough. I'll have to see if I can try this on a cold day, once they're out, but driver-only HVAC blowing warm air would seem to be a better energy solution for people like me.
 
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