gcrouse
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

LeftieBiker wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:02 pm What asshats. The could have specified 4-1 CCS/Chademo, but no - they had to screw the drivers of the most popular budget EV. Humans really are incapable of doing anything right.
Well....keep in mind the long term timeframe considered by the planning document (https://highways.dot.gov/newsroom/presi ... v-charging) The full program guidance is located as a link on there. It's not prohibiting the installation of CHADEMO by any means - it's just not requiring them. Your best bet is to contact whoever in your state is going to be required to submit plans to the fed gov later this year arguing for CHADEMO to be included in the state plans.

Although -

The plan for build out is targeting a 2030 date for the 500,000 chargers. Through the end of last year - Nissan only sold 165,710 Nissan Leafs (114,827 from 2010-2017). Assuming a 10 year lifecycle for the Leafs sold from 2010-2017 - most of the Leafs are going to be off the road by the end state contemplated and no automakers are planning to move forward with the CHADEMO standard in the future.

Granted - i have severe doubts that was really considered. I think the only real consideration is that CCS standard has been chosen as the US standard moving forward and so as a matter of infrastructure build out it doesn't really make sense to tie up the money for legacy or proprietary standards for a set of cars that made up less than 4% of all auto sales in the past. Last year Nissan sold 14,239 Leafs - looking at overall potential future demand - it's really a drop in the bucket compared to projected future EV sales with CCS chargers - including Nissan's own Ariya.

To be sure, it sucks for those of us with Leafs, but in terms of big government planning - it's fairly sensible since only 2 vehicles are currently sold in the US with the CHADEMO standard (and in relatively low volumes) and the Leaf in it's current form dies by 2025. By comparison Tesla sold an estimated 360,000 vehicles (https://insideevs.com/news/560307/tesla ... w-us-2021/) As a matter of policy for future EV adoption, it's good that a standard is more or less being codified by automakers and government.
LeftieBiker
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

The plan for build out is targeting a 2030 date for the 500,000 chargers. Through the end of last year - Nissan only sold 165,710 Nissan Leafs (114,827 from 2010-2017). Assuming a 10 year lifecycle for the Leafs sold from 2010-2017 - most of the Leafs are going to be off the road by the end state contemplated and no automakers are planning to move forward with the CHADEMO standard in the future.

(...)

To be sure, it sucks for those of us with Leafs,
Chademo isn't a Leaf-specific standard, as about half a dozen EVs sold in the US use or used it. In the rush to be Modern, let's not forget to try to be sustainable as well, and to avoid alienating those early adopters who drive Chademo-equipped vehicles, and who are raising children. The next 15 years are going to be a critical (if also too late) period for accelerating EV adoption. It is a terrible idea to 'strand' tens of thousands of EVs as we open the interstate highways to new ones.
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gcrouse
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

LeftieBiker wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:57 am
The plan for build out is targeting a 2030 date for the 500,000 chargers. Through the end of last year - Nissan only sold 165,710 Nissan Leafs (114,827 from 2010-2017). Assuming a 10 year lifecycle for the Leafs sold from 2010-2017 - most of the Leafs are going to be off the road by the end state contemplated and no automakers are planning to move forward with the CHADEMO standard in the future.

(...)

To be sure, it sucks for those of us with Leafs,
Chademo isn't a Leaf-specific standard, as about half a dozen EVs sold in the US use or used it. In the rush to be Modern, let's not forget to try to be sustainable as well, and to avoid alienating those early adopters who drive Chademo-equipped vehicles, and who are raising children. The next 15 years are going to be a critical (if also too late) period for accelerating EV adoption. It is a terrible idea to 'strand' tens of thousands of EVs as we open the interstate highways to new ones.
I'm tracking Leaf, iMiev, and Outlander PHEV - are there others using the Chademo standard I'm missing?

I get what you're saying about sustainability - but in terms of fed. gov funds appropriation - the overall sales of Chademo vehicles is rather small compared to the amount of vehicles sold with other connectors and realistically, i don't think the government cares much about early adopters since we are overall likely to buy EVs again. It's definitely worth looking up who's responsible for providing your state's plans to the federal gov. For the funding and doing some self advocating for Chademo inclusive state planning (states have until sometime around early summer for submitting plans to fed gov for funding IIRC). The squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say.

Apologies if this is a bit disjointed - I'm bouncing back and forth between this and the thrilled world of civil procedure lectures.
GRA
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Looking at the map, the "Ready" corridors are just EA's current interstate network, and most of the future interstate routes are also along their planned network.

It is nice to see U.S. highways in rural areas (Nevada etc.) eligible for funds.

On CHAdeMO I'll have to disagree with Leftie. By the time any of these chargers appear, most of the existing 1st gen CHAdeMO-equipped cars will have such degraded batteries in what were already range-limited vehicles, that no one but fanatics would consider using them for anything but restricted local use, and the small number of new cars so equipped is simply not worth wasting the money catering to.

CHAdeMO in the U S. Is kind of like the guy being carried out to the dead cart by John Cleese in "Holy Grail": despite his protests that he's "not dead yet", that he "feels happy" and that he's "going for a walk", as Cleese's character says, "you're not fooling anybody". CHAdeMO's death in the U.S. has been protracted, but it's high time to practice triage where it's concerned (or bop it on the head), i.e. not throw any more government money at it. The sooner we can get everyone onto a single charging standard, the better for the growth of BEVs. First CHAdeMO, then Tesla.

I've said in the past that if I'd been appointed EV dictator we'd all be using the Tesla connector, but a universal 2nd best is better than a continuation of multiple standards. As Elon said way back when in justifying the building of the SC network, Tesla "couldn't afford to wait for someone else to build one".

True then, but that justification no longer applies, and since Tesla already has both CCS-1 and -2 adapters and already builds cars for Europe with the latter instead of their own connector, I expect they'll do the same with CCS-1 here in the not too distant future and begin converting SCs to CCS-1 - why continue to build a charging network yourself when others are doing it for you?
Last edited by GRA on Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
DougWantsALeaf
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

I love the Monty python reference. Important everyone in the board pass on the references to their kids.

I have seen a couple articles that suggest the new EV infra bills are going to require ccs only. Nothing to stop them from offering a Chademo, but not required either.

I do hope some enterprising engineer figures out an adapter.

Early 2023 is still peak Chademo..before the decline. Many chademos still coming on line this year. Even some new EVgo sites recently in Chicago.
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cwerdna
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

gcrouse wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:57 am I'm tracking Leaf, iMiev, and Outlander PHEV - are there others using the Chademo standard I'm missing?
https://www.chademo.com/products/evs/ - however many of those vehicles aren't sold in the US or the CHAdeMO inlet was omitted from US vehicles (e.g. Prius Prime, Fit EV (that was also lease-only)). And, Bollinger had a change of plans before shipping any consumer vehicles.

Kia Soul EV gen 1 was CHAdeMO. Gen 2 never made it to the US and was CCS for Canada.

Also, Tesla, S, X, 3 and Y can use CHAdeMO w/an adapter, which vanished from the US https://shop.tesla.com/ months ago. There's at least one person here who regularly charges his 3 w/CHAdeMO up in Canada. We have this ongoing thread at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... e-15#posts of some folks who use their adapter. I've personally witnessed Tesla drivers using CHAdeMO chargers here in the SF Bay Area despite there being plenty of Tesla Supercharger infrastructure.

Some places seem popular (at least for pics) for Tesla drivers w/CHAdeMO adapters like these:
https://www.plugshare.com/location/228475
https://www.plugshare.com/location/208767

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Thanks, Cwerdna - I was waiting for you. :)
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
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cwerdna
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

I forgot to mention that https://www.chademo.com/products/evs/ is also missing at least three other EVs that have CHAdeMO but not sold in the US with that: Japanese-market versions of the BMW i3, VW e-Golf and Mercedes EQC. I've personally seen the latter two w/their CHAdeMO inlets at Tokyo Motor Show and have posted about it.

Mazda MX-30 EV for Japan should also have CHAdeMO.

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

GCC:
California HVIP to re-open to voucher requests 30 March for FY21-22; total of $569.5M for FY21-22
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/0 ... -hvip.html

California’s HVIP (Hybrid and Zero-Emission Truck and Bus Voucher Incentive Project) will re-open to voucher requests for standard HVIP funds at 10 a.m. Pacific on Wednesday, 30 March 2022. For FY21-22, $196.6 million is available for standard HVIP voucher requests.

Additionally, the following set-aside funds will also become available at the same date and time:

$65.5 million for public transit buses

Approximately $46 million for class 8 tractors performing drayage operations

$122 million for the Public School Bus Set-Aside for Small and Medium Air Districts

School bus requests that are not part of the school bus set-aside will be funded out of standard HVIP starting on 30 March. If set-aside funds are fully requested in any of these three set-aside categories, HVIP will continue to allow standard voucher requests for these categories pending funding availability.

An additional set-aside, the Innovative Small E-Fleets (ISEF) program, is set to open later this spring with $23.4 million. . . .

The 30 March 30 opening date and all implementation details are contingent on the release of the FY21-22 Implementation Manual (IM) by the California Air Resources Board (CARB).

If the dollar value of all requests received for standard HVIP funds during the first 24 hours that HVIP is open is greater than the amount of available funds, funding will be assigned using a randomization process.

After the first 24 hours, requests are first-come, first served. Requests for vehicles domiciled in Disadvantaged Communities will be prioritized first in the randomization.

If demand for the drayage and/or transit set-asides exceeds available funds in the first 24 hours, requests will be randomized within each separate vehicle cohort. The other set-asides will not be randomized. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
GRA
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

GCC:
Delaware adopting California’s ZEV regulations
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/0 ... aware.html

Delaware will join 13 other states in adopting California’s Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) regulations. Implementation of the ZEV regulations would not take place until model year 2027 (2026) to provide manufacturers time to adjust their inventories and prepare dealerships.

Managed by the Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control (DNREC), the ZEV program is designed to accelerate the commercialization of battery-electric, plug-in hybrid and fuel cell electric vehicles. The regulations mandate that a certain percentage of the vehicles delivered for sale in a state are ZEV vehicles. Manufacturers receive credits for each delivered vehicle based on the type of vehicle, range and other factors. Each year, manufacturers must meet a ZEV credit amount that is based on average annual sales. In states already in the program, the automobile industry has successfully met the required percentage.

Transportation is the leading source of greenhouse gas emissions in Delaware. DNREC Secretary Shawn M. Garvin said increasing the number of zero emission vehicles on Delaware roads, along with building out the state’s electric vehicle charging network are key strategies outlined in Delaware’s Climate Action Plan, a result of a two year-long process involving residents, businesses, and technical experts. . . .

The DNREC Clean Vehicle Rebate Program currently offers rebates up to $2,500 within 90 days of a vehicle purchase or lease before June 30, 2022. In November, DNREC also announced a $1.4 million grant program to expand Delaware’s electric charging network. Funding will be targeted to increase the availability of electric vehicle infrastructure in areas where access to fast charging stations is limited.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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