SDG&E EV-TOU-5

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philip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
131
Location
El Cajon, CA
Just a heads up that San Diego Gas & Electric has an new EV rate. This one has a $16 monthly charge in exchange for .09/kWh super off peak rates - and a very slight savings on the other time periods.

This is probably better than EV-TOU-2 if you don't have PV. As it only takes 115 kWh of super off peak power each month to come out ahead.

If you have PV, then you will have to do a bit of work to figure out if it works out or not since the $16 monthly charge isn't part of NET metering and doesn't buy you any energy (it isn't a minimum charge). So under the new tariff, you will pay $192/year before you pay for any energy versus paying $120/year for $120 worth of energy.

Also, if you are on grandfathered TOU time periods, you will lose that status if you switch. This rate only has the 4-9pm peak rate on the tariff - no grandfathered time periods. It may still be a better deal if you use a lot of super off peak power and have low usage in the evenings - this will need to also be weighed against the super off peak going into the afternoons on weekends (not good for PV credits).

http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_EV-TOU-5.pdf
 
Thanks for sharing this.

This would be even nicer if you could choose EV-TOU 5 instead of EV-TOU (EV Only with separate meter), but it appears it is for both home and EV combined like EV-TOU 2. So if you have larger home kWh use during peak time it may not make sense. If your home kWh use is small compared to a large EV kWh use then this is sweet.

Interesting option. I wonder what was the impetus to develop this option.
 
lkkms2 said:
Interesting option. I wonder what was the impetus to develop this option.

They had some experimental rates that were similar to this one (three of them in fact), and I think this is the culmination of that. The idea being that the utility can separate their fixed cost from variable costs - so the consumer pays a fixed rate that covers the fixed cost to provide service to a residence, which is normally rolled into rates given to all customers (giving an arguably unfair advantage to those with PV who do not contribute to those fixed costs). Kind of how commercial customers have a demand charge.

It also makes evening EV charging a lot more reasonable as .23/kWhr is approaching the cost of an efficient ICE on gasoline/diesel. When I first switched onto EV-TOU2, the super off peak rate was .14/kWhr and peak was .28 - it's kind of ridiculous now with peak at .53+ (on non-grandfathered tou time periods). I can run a diesel or NG gen set for less than that.
 
philip said:
lkkms2 said:
Interesting option. I wonder what was the impetus to develop this option.

They had some experimental rates that were similar to this one (three of them in fact), and I think this is the culmination of that. The idea being that the utility can separate their fixed cost from variable costs - so the consumer pays a fixed rate that covers the fixed cost to provide service to a residence, which is normally rolled into rates given to all customers (giving an arguably unfair advantage to those with PV who do not contribute to those fixed costs). Kind of how commercial customers have a demand charge.

It also makes evening EV charging a lot more reasonable as .23/kWhr is approaching the cost of an efficient ICE on gasoline/diesel. When I first switched onto EV-TOU2, the super off peak rate was .14/kWhr and peak was .28 - it's kind of ridiculous now with peak at .53+ (on non-grandfathered tou time periods). I can run a diesel or NG gen set for less than that.

I know that some people that installed Solar years ago are grandfathered into a good Net metering rate, I wonder if this new rate would be good for new SDGE customers adding solar + storage + EV? I am planning to add solar and storage (have an EV already with 2nd/separate submeter). Any thoughts on this?

If Randy from SDGE see this, what is your input?
 
If you have solar (or are expecting to have it soon), be cautious. The $16 fixed service fee will accumulate and result in a true-up charge of nearly $200, every 12 months. If your solar suffices for all your consumption over the 12 months, then EVTOU5 would likely increase your cost. If not, or if you don't have/expect a solar system soon, and you charge EV's after midnight, then EVTOU5 is a fantastic deal. Just remember there are grandfathering provisions for older tariffs, and if you change, it is a one-way transaction.

Indeed, the trend to separate fixed costs from variable costs is the goal, which will provide customers with rational price "signals". Think of you phone or cable service; the monthly cost is mostly a function of having the service available to you, regardless of usage.
 
I heard about this plan from a fellow EV owner over the weekend. Since my solar system is not currently large enough to offset all my usage, this looks like it will easily reduce my bill by a decent amount. My system is old enough that I was not grandfathered into the recent TOU time periods so I've been living with the new TOU time periods since Dec 1, 2017 which really affect the ability to generate on-peak credits. Now

Now, EV-TOU2 and DR-SES (exactly the same rates these days) both include a minimum charge as well, $0.329/day or $9.87 for a 30-day billing cycle.

This minimum charge adjustment also gets added to your bill under a "Minimum Charge Adjustment" line-item. If I understand right - the monthly service fee for EV-TOU5 is added on top of your energy billing charges, instead of being a minimum charge as in EV-TOU2.
 
I logged into my account at SDG&E, and they've added a new feature that calculates your annual fees using all the available plans based on your last 12 months usage. In my case, EV-TOU-5 cut my annual bill in half. I'm in a similar situation to drees. My solar doesn't cover all of my usage. Under the old TOU periods, I was fine, but the new periods would have jacked my annual bill up to $1,101. EV-TOU-5 cuts that down to $574.
 
davewill said:
I logged into my account at SDG&E, and they've added a new feature that calculates your annual fees using all the available plans based on your last 12 months usage. In my case, EV-TOU-5 cut my annual bill in half. I'm in a similar situation to drees. My solar doesn't cover all of my usage. Under the old TOU periods, I was fine, but the new periods would have jacked my annual bill up to $1,101. EV-TOU-5 cuts that down to $574.


Where did you find this simulator?
 
davewill said:
LeafPowerIsIxE said:
Where did you find this simulator?
Log into https://myaccount.sdge.com then choose "Compare Pricing Plans".

Thanks - It doesn't show for my account currently because my plan change (one year period) ends in September. I'll review at that time. So far, the DR-SES has worked out because we pushed all of our heavy power usage (Leaf-Pool-Well-Irrigation-Dishwasher) to after midnight. Not sure how that will play in Aug-Sep-Oct when the A/C requirements become more intense. Switching the on-peak period to 4p-9p was a dirty trick by SDGE - a direct attack on the solar customers. This was implemented 1-month after I switched plans. No mention of it by the rep that convinced me to move off my grandfathered tier pricing last October.
 
LeafPower,
I work for SDG&E and am an EV driver and enthusiast.

I think you are misunderstanding the whole TOU period situation if you think it was a dirty trick...

Before solar generation was adopted by a lot of customers, some TOU rates had peak periods of 11am to 6pm and some of the EV rates had peak periods of noon to 6pm. I used to work in our control center and the summer peak was around 3pm in the afternoon. That's when wholesale energy prices were highest.

The purpose of this higher peak retail TOU price signal is mainly felt in the summer and it has always been to encourage people to move discretionary load from that time period to a cheaper off-peak or super off-peak time. The reason is because energy is always more expensive in the peak time, and when more energy is used in the peak period, the utility has to spend more to serve that load.

What you probably don't realize is that most medium and larger sized businesses have historically been on these TOU rates as well, many more business customers than residential customers.

Another thing you probably don't realize (I'm guessing from your comment) is that the utility doesn't make money from selling energy (sales have been de-coupled from profits). Energy commodity is now a pass-through, and has been for several years in California. The utility makes money from constructing capital projects as they are necessary on the grid, with the associated financing that it takes to get a project built.

What has happened over the past few years is that hundreds of MW of solar PV systems have been installed in San Diego, and their production peaks after lunch. This has pushed the peak time to later in the day (specifically 4-9 pm when they aren't generating - but the load is just as high as it's ever been). The purpose of the peak time charge is to encourage customers to shift their loads, and not to benefit or punish certain types of customers. It will (and should) always follow what the actual peak time is. that may change down the road to a different time as system conditions change.

Solar customers want higher prices in the daytime because they get higher credits for their generation. Business customers don't want higher prices during the afternoon period because it costs them more to run their business. The utility doesn't benefit, it's goal is to set the TOU periods to reflect reality and send the proper pricing signals.

The prices need to reflect reality in the summer season, and the new reality is that the peak is later in the day. So that's the time that the pricing signals are meant for....

It's as simple as that. No dastardly plan at work. There is actually more of a surplus of energy in the middle of the day now than there used to be. The TOU periods have to change to reflect that....
 
Randy said:
LeafPower,
I work for SDG&E and am an EV driver and enthusiast.

I think you are misunderstanding the whole TOU period situation if you think it was a dirty trick...

Before solar generation was adopted by a lot of customers, some TOU rates had peak periods of 11am to 6pm and some of the EV rates had peak periods of noon to 6pm. I used to work in our control center and the summer peak was around 3pm in the afternoon. That's when wholesale energy prices were highest.

The purpose of this higher peak retail TOU price signal is mainly felt in the summer and it has always been to encourage people to move discretionary load from that time period to a cheaper off-peak or super off-peak time. The reason is because energy is always more expensive in the peak time, and when more energy is used in the peak period, the utility has to spend more to serve that load.

What you probably don't realize is that most medium and larger sized businesses have historically been on these TOU rates as well, many more business customers than residential customers.

Another thing you probably don't realize (I'm guessing from your comment) is that the utility doesn't make money from selling energy (sales have been de-coupled from profits). Energy commodity is now a pass-through, and has been for several years in California. The utility makes money from constructing capital projects as they are necessary on the grid, with the associated financing that it takes to get a project built.

What has happened over the past few years is that hundreds of MW of solar PV systems have been installed in San Diego, and their production peaks after lunch. This has pushed the peak time to later in the day (specifically 4-9 pm when they aren't generating - but the load is just as high as it's ever been). The purpose of the peak time charge is to encourage customers to shift their loads, and not to benefit or punish certain types of customers. It will (and should) always follow what the actual peak time is. that may change down the road to a different time as system conditions change.

Solar customers want higher prices in the daytime because they get higher credits for their generation. Business customers don't want higher prices during the afternoon period because it costs them more to run their business. The utility doesn't benefit, it's goal is to set the TOU periods to reflect reality and send the proper pricing signals.

The prices need to reflect reality in the summer season, and the new reality is that the peak is later in the day. So that's the time that the pricing signals are meant for....

It's as simple as that. No dastardly plan at work. There is actually more of a surplus of energy in the middle of the day now than there used to be. The TOU periods have to change to reflect that....

Thank you for your very detailed education on this topic. I appreciate it. I have always perceived SDGE as an enemy of solar customers, as antithetical as that seems. When I first had my system installed, I had a lot of interaction with the SDGE reps. One of them made a comment (~May-2008) that solar customers just represent "the rich getting richer" and not "paying my fair share". I was stunned. Not sure about the atmosphere today.

When I was "encouraged" by the SDGE rep last year to make the change to DR-SES, On-Peak was defined as 12p-6p. This maximized my production during the highest rate period. The very next billing period, SDGE sent me a notice changing the On-Peak period to 4p-9p. I called to complain, but of course was told it was too late - I was locked in for 1-year. I have subsequently found work-arounds, as you detailed above, to better fit into the DR-SES profile. I can see a day coming where SDGE moves on-peak periods to 6p-11p. Or worse.

I will review the newly proposed options in September. It's possible I am on the best available plan. I was told I could also revert back to tier-based pricing. I'm not sure that makes sense anymore based on our current energy profile. The myriad and complexity of the energy plan offerings are dizzying. Mistakes in selection can be punishing.

Thanks, again.
 
Hi I am new to this EV program, since I bought mine just a few months ago. My husband had a Tesla and we have been on the EV-TOU-2 but now that I have a Leaf we have 2 EV cars. Our SDGE bill was outrageous! I just did the pricing and it shows this new EV-TOU-5 would save me about $1000. How accurate is their pricing? Also my 93 year old grandmother just moved in with me an we will be getting the medical based pricing. Should I switch to the EV-TOU-5 or just go ahead with the medical based pricing? Which gives a bigger savings? We charge our cars from 1am to 5 am and we run our pool pump at night from 1-8am but we still had a $1,100 electric bill for the month of June. Any suggestions? Thanks!
 
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be accurate, but it is based on your prior usage, so if your future usage is different... Super off peak starts at midnight, so you should slide the pool pump back an hour to get a little more savings. You could also cut it back to only midnight to 6am on the weekdays, then add some extra hours on the seems when SOP runs until 2pm. The only other thing to do is ashift other usage to cheaper times or install solar.

You'd have to try and analyse your old bills vs the medical plans to figure out which is cheaper. There no cut and dried answer to which plan is better short of doing the math.
 
Cocitagilbert1 said:
.. but we still had a $1,100 electric bill for the month of June

You didn't give us a lot of data to go on (size of home and its location), miles driven, AC usage, other heavy electric consumers.

It sounds like you don't have PV, so switching to TOU-5 from TOU-2 is easy - TOU-5 will be cheaper. But with MB rates, you will have to analyze your usage and your ability (and willingness) to shift loads. Based on your $1100 bill, you are probably using around 3200 kWh/month - a very high usage for San Diego area. That would likely put you over 400% baseline on normal DR rates. It will put you right around 400% on MB DR rates. If you do no other load shifting other than EV charging and the pool pump (hopefully variable speed), I still think you will SLIGHTLY come out ahead on TOU-5 MB rates. Assuming around 1000 kWh super off peak/month.

Switching rates won't magically cause your bill to drop from $1100 to $200/mo - the other plans may drop you to $900 - if you really want to reduce your bill, you are going to need to take control of your usage and find out where you can save. The EVs are probably not contributing to as much as your bill as you may think (2000 miles a month at 3.7 miles/kWh would only cost you $124) You need to look at other consumers: AC use, old refrigerator (or multiple refrigerator/freezers), incandescent bulbs, cable/satellite DVRs on 24hrs/day, computers on 24hrs/day, single speed pool pump, pool heat pump and the basics - leaving lights on, TV on all the time, etc. Hopefully you have gas available and aren't heating water with electricity.

For reference our June bill without solar would have been $250 - only one EV at 1000 miles/month and a pool, 2900 sq ft, 1980s construction in east county. June was a cooler month though, our July bill would be $385 where we ran the AC a lot more. We load shift what we can to super off peak - pool pump/SWG, dishwasher, EV charging and we are well aware that when we turn on a light switch we are making a purchasing decision. Our annual usage is 10,500 kWh and it didn't take much effort - and I estimate I can use over 50% of that on super off peak when I switch to TOU-5.

Also, don't knee jerk into getting PV, look to get your usage under control first (then if you desire to have PV which is not as beneficial as it once was, the system can be a lot smaller).
 
@Randy - Thank you for reminding folk that SDGE isn't ALL bad. Sure, backroom deals like San Onofre leave ratepayers once-bitten, but solar and EV rates have been relatively good since regulated at State level.

As Randy pointed out, the 'duck-bill' phenomena has occurred with the large increase of solar capacity across California. True grid demand has been shifted to afternoons when everyone comes home, plug in their EV to CHARGE, turn on AC, cook, wash their clothes, and watch TV....just as the sun disappears and pulls thousands of PV arrays off the grid. TOU simply reflects the demand which squarely falls 4p-9p. Even more telling-- OhmConnect power alerts for savings have largely fallen between 6p-9p this past year.

If SDGE really wanted to put the screws to PV - TOU wound be 6p-9p.

We've been on TOU-2 since for years since we are NEM 1.0 / PV 3.8kwh / EV users with activation of PV 8/2014 and EV charging about 300kw per month We're Grandfatherred into old TOU schedules 12p-6p until next year.

Kicker -- we installed Powerwall 2.0 in April with SGIP program. Easy to time shift the PV energy to support TOU peak times in the evening. :)

We just found out about the TOU-5 plan last night. I switched.

@ Randy - WISHLIST to SDGE- Develop EV to V2H support - don't know why SGIP didn't have a subsegment to do this.
 
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