Seven year report, 2011 LEAF.

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edatoakrun

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
5,222
Location
Shasta County, North California
Posting ~on my LEAF's build date anniversary, rather than delivery, since I have some free time.

Not much has changed so I'll just add some new specs to my six+ year post below.

I'm expecting to reach about 60 k miles by mid-May, and expect to see about 600 Wh in additional available capacity loss over the last year, the same as the last few years, once temps increase to the point I will regain most of the Winter seasonal capacity loss.

The only real surprise since my six-year post was Nissan's new screw you policy RE pack replacement, instituted last Fall.

So, rather than waiting for eight capacity bars (still at nine bars today, despite ~42.5 AH shown by the LBC) I opened BBB arbitration In November.
I can't say anything positive about the behavior of either Nissan or the BBB in that process, and I still haven't gotten into arbitration yet.

The good news is that finally having a few fairly reliable charge sites both locally and on routes south, I can make most extended trips far more quickly and easily now with a seven-year-old pack, than I could when my LEAF was new.

The bad news, is in that my 50+ mile regular trip minimum, ending with an >1,500 ft ascent, is now only possible using only my preferred "80%" charge to VLBW capacity when I have a combination of pack and ambient temperatures averaging above about 55 F, which has been hard to come by since last October...

edatoakrun said:
Six years and 52k miles passed a few weeks ago.

Very pleased overall, with my LEAF's performance.

Dependability is such (towed only once, for a sidewall torn by a collapsed pavement edge I carelessly hit) that I will probably still will have never used the extended warranty, when it expires next year.

TCO has been slightly higher than I expected, due to depreciation being a few k$ more than expected, but I'll probably get that (and more) all back, due to much lower than expected prices on new BEVs, when and if I replace my LEAF with another BEV in the future.

There's one major difference I've noticed between my experience and many others on this forum.

Seeing many of the comments and complaints of others, I have to conclude that relying on the innacurate LBC ("gid" meter) while driving a LEAF is an anxiety-inducing experience.

After more than six years, I've never run out of Wh, and never really suffered from "range anxiety" (charge-site anxiety yes, frequently) and largely credit my never relying on my LBC for its estimates of remaining energy capacity or battery capacity loss, for this experience.

Instead of relying on the LBC, I prefer to use only high-integrity data sources, primarily AVTA test results:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2012-nissan-leaf

And parameters that can be measured accurately, kWh received from the grid, miles driven, and time.

Knowing the approximate nominal kWh available to LBW and VLB from my initial charge of "80%" or "100%", and watching the Nav screen m/kWh while I drive, I know both my nominal kWh used, and what are the approximate N kWh remaining wherever I drive, and can avoid all anxiety caused by the often "pessimistic" estimates from the LBC, of kWh remaining.

I also have a pretty good idea of what my LEAF's total and available battery capacity loss over time has been.

At six years and 52 k miles, my best estimates are:

My LEAF's pack had slightly under 19 kWh total capacity (as per AVTA test standards) and about 17 kWh available, when warm, at ~80 F.

That's about a 21% reduction from the 24 kWh Nissan specified, and ~18.5% lower than the average capacity Nissan actually delivered in 2012, according to AVTA testing of multiple LEAF packs.

My LEAF's range loss has been considerably lower than capacity loss since delivery.

At the relatively slow speeds (mostly mountain roads) I drive my own LEAF's efficiency gain reflects the high driving ranges relative to capacity shown in the AVTA 2012 LEAF 45 mph constant-speed tests, for the LEAFs with the less abused L2-charged packs.

I expect my LEAF's range loss per "100%" charge since delivery probably averaged close to 15% over the last year, higher in Winter and lower in Summer.

The ~32.5% Loss of capacity my LEAF's "pessimistic" LBC showed at six years and 52 k is really only of concern to me in how Nissan will consider this factor when I request (or demand) a replacement battery pack for my LEAF, which I'll probably be doing before Winter.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23733&start=40
 
This is an interesting comparison to show how the LEAF's technology has, and is continuing to improve.

My 2014 now almost has 52000 miles on it, has all its bars and still goes 78-85 miles on a charge.
 
My 25 year old sons 2011 Leaf has almost 37k on the odometer, and usually shows about 50 miles range when fully charged. Eight capacity bars remain, but it seems to suit his modest commuting needs just fine, for school and part time work. Too bad Nissan's policy changed just as we approached the loss of that fourth bar. Guess that's one reason we are transitioning to Tesla now.
 
Wow. I salute you for continuing to make it work despite challenges the battery deterioration is treating you to. I hope you have luck in resolving the battery dispute.

Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong? That bodes well. It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan. Sadly, the prices of new BEVs haven't dropped all that much, except when viewed in terms of what you get for the money.
 
My 2011 has 31,500mi. I am down to 8 bars. It was put into service on May 31 2011. Here on the big island of Hawaii it gets me where I need to go. Even if I had a new battery it would not change where I could go. I would not be able to go to Kona and back without spending time charging in Kona. So it does what I need it to do.
Other than rotating tires every 5000 miles and one cabin filter change, I have not done anything to it. 12 volt battery still works. I have not done anything to the brakes, they work. Didn't upgrade from 2g cell. I just get in and drive.
 
OrientExpress said:
This is an interesting comparison to show how the LEAF's technology has, and is continuing to improve.

My 2014 now almost has 52000 miles on it, has all its bars and still goes 78-85 miles on a charge.
The new MY2018 LEAF certainly has improved in many ways over the MY2011 LEAFs. And I agree that it appears your MY 2014 battery is holding up well. OTOH, we see MY2016 30-kWh batteries which have already lost four capacity bars in Orlando, FL, after about two years and fewer than 19,000 miles.

It will be interesting to see how the MY2018 batteries hold up. My understanding from a link that you provided is that the capacity increase for the new model was achieved by five main changes: 1) a change of the MNC anode chemistry of the cells, 2) a thinner separator, 3) an increase of the cell thickness by 0.9mm, 4) a change of the number of cells per module from 4 to 8, and 5) a rearrangement of the modules in the battery. Given the thinner separator and if that change in chemistry is from NMC622 to NMC811 as I suspect, then we may find that the capacity loss in the MY2018 batteries may be even more rapid than we are seeing in the MY2016s. Time will tell.

Back on topic: Our MY2011, which was put into service in September 2011 as a demo car, has 9 capacity bars remaining and LeafSpy indicates remaining capacity is about 47 Ah after about 52,000 miles. My wife currently commutes about 50 miles each day in the car as long as the OAT is above about 20F when she departs. Below that temperature or if it is cold and extremely windy, she takes our MY2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, which we purchased almost exactly ten years prior to acquiring our LEAF.

Our LEAF should continue to suffice for my wife's commute through this fall and perhaps through Fall 2019, as well. I doubt that it will be able to make that commute beyond Fall, 2019, however. We are of a similar mindset to DarthPuppy:
DarthPuppy said:
Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong? That bodes well. It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan. Sadly, the prices of new BEVs haven't dropped all that much, except when viewed in terms of what you get for the money.
When the time comes that she can no longer make her commute, we will probably choose between replacing our LEAF's battery or purchasing a used BEV such as a 2015 LEAF as a replacement.
 
downeykp said:
My 2011 has 31,500mi. I am down to 8 bars. It was put into service on May 31 2011. Here on the big island of Hawaii it gets me where I need to go. Even if I had a new battery it would not change where I could go. I would not be able to go to Kona and back without spending time charging in Kona. So it does what I need it to do.
Other than rotating tires every 5000 miles and one cabin filter change, I have not done anything to it. 12 volt battery still works. I have not done anything to the brakes, they work. Didn't upgrade from 2g cell. I just get in and drive.

i do miss the remote status capability but I didn't upgrade either. my 2011 now has 76K mi and I'm 25K on the Lizard replacement. good to still see some of the original gang still driving the first wave of cars.
 
OrientExpress said:
I think it will be hilarious if the issues with the 30kWh cars turn out to just be software and not anything to do with chemistry.

Hilarious for whom, exactly? And do you really think that Nissan programmed these cars to appear to drop capacity bars and lose range even though the actual capacity doesn't drop rapidly? You need to pick and choose your talking points a bit more carefully.
 
DarthPuppy said:
Wow. I salute you for continuing to make it work despite challenges the battery deterioration is treating you to. I hope you have luck in resolving the battery dispute.

Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong? That bodes well. It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan. Sadly, the prices of new BEVs haven't dropped all that much, except when viewed in terms of what you get for the money.

Yes, agreed. I have been using mine for a daily 50 mile round trip commute. When the battery deteriorates, my plan it for my wife to take over the car. She stays at home and only has a 10-15 mile per day need to do errands.... Who knows, we may be able to work the original battery for 10+ years?
 
DarthPuppy said:
Wow. I salute you for continuing to make it work despite challenges the battery deterioration is treating you to. I hope you have luck in resolving the battery dispute.

Keeping these in service long term as long as the battery meets the needs is really the most environmentally friendly option. So other than the battery deterioration, it is still going strong?...
Sure. It's a (fairly) well kept car with less than 60 k miles.

And remember that with ~18.5 kWh remaining, it still has about the same capacity as (and much longer electric range) than a brand-new 2018 Chevy Volt. If my commute wasn't so long, fifty to sixty miles, I'd probably be content to continue to use the OE battery for years to come.

DarthPuppy said:
...It might be a good candidate for a battery replacement, even if it has to be paid without help from Nissan...
And that brings up another feature of Nissan's screw you battery replacement policy.

Nissan has refused to sell me a new pack, unless I give them back my OE pack for only $1k in credit, a fraction of my pack's current value.
 
June, 2011 car here.
Currently at 71,500 miles
Cost of Maintenance: $365 - set of tire at 64K miles and a set of wipers
8 bar reached at about year 6th (~70mos), 62K miles in March, 2017
Begged/Negotiated with Nissan, and paid $2400 for a new 2017 battery pack.

--- there was speculation that 2017 battery pack is maybe a 2016+ model battery pack with 30kWH at 107 miles range, and not the original Lizard pack. My experiences so far is proven more truth than not ;) . I am now getting 105, 107 on full charge, even on the new less efficient tires (non OEM Ecopia). I am not sure if it's true 30kwh pack, but definitely more than the original 24kwh capacity.
 
edatoakrun said:
Nissan has refused to sell me a new pack, unless I give them back my OE pack for only $1k in credit, a fraction of my pack's current value.
Dang that is not nice. I can see why they would want to get the OE pack back. But to outright refuse to sell you a new battery without the return isn't nice.

And let me guess: Did they program the car so non-Nissan shops can't do a battery swap that will work properly with the car? Otherwise, it would be tempting to buy a near new wreck just to get a fresh battery to swap. Don't some jurisdictions have laws that would require them to sell parts to non-affiliated repair shops or allow the car to be serviced outside of their control? They might not actually be able to enforce that policy. I just guessing on these aspects. I would hope they can't force us to use them to repair or replace components on the car. I thought there were laws in place to protect the existence of independent repair shops.
 
DarthPuppy said:
edatoakrun said:
Nissan has refused to sell me a new pack, unless I give them back my OE pack for only $1k in credit, a fraction of my pack's current value.
Dang that is not nice. I can see why they would want to get the OE pack back. But to outright refuse to sell you a new battery without the return isn't nice.

And let me guess: Did they program the car so non-Nissan shops can't do a battery swap that will work properly with the car? Otherwise, it would be tempting to buy a near new wreck just to get a fresh battery to swap. Don't some jurisdictions have laws that would require them to sell parts to non-affiliated repair shops or allow the car to be serviced outside of their control? They might not actually be able to enforce that policy. I just guessing on these aspects. I would hope they can't force us to use them to repair or replace components on the car. I thought there were laws in place to protect the existence of independent repair shops.

I agree with Nissan on getting the batteries back... More and more EVs will be on the road. Can you imagine the ecological effect of millions of 600lb batteries going into the ground? Also, it is the most efficient way to recycle the old batteries to make new ones.

Also, If you are replacing the battery because it is bad, then it has NO VALUE. You just want to play with it. I don't trust home hobbyists taking batteries apart.
 
There is nothing unusual about requiring a core turn-in on a high value part before selling another one in the automotive industry. Transmissions, many electronic parts and other mechanical parts all have the same core return policies.

A traction battery is certainly a high value piece, and given its recyclability it is completely understandable, no core, no new battery.
 
powersurge said:
edatoakrun said:
...Nissan has refused to sell me a new pack, unless I give them back my OE pack for only $1k in credit, a fraction of my pack's current value...
...If you are replacing the battery because it is bad, then it has NO VALUE...
As I've already explained, my pack has about the same capacity in kWh as that installed in a brand-new 2018 Chevy Volt.

Only an idiot would say this battery has "NO VALUE".

OrientExpress said:
There is nothing unusual about requiring a core turn-in on a high value part before selling another one in the automotive industry. Transmissions, many electronic parts and other mechanical parts all have the same core return policies...
I believe your statement is false.

AFAIK, every other core charge is made when a core is not returned, a decision which is left entirely at the option of the owner/buyer.

OrientExpress said:
A traction battery is certainly a high value piece, and given its recyclability it is completely understandable, no core, no new battery.
Actually, I expect Nissan would re-purpose, not recycle my pack, were I to return it, just as I would if I kept it, since it probably has ten to twenty years of useful life remaining in a stationary application.

Even if Nissan can legally demand that I return my OE pack as a condition of sale of a new pack (which I doubt) that does not relieve Nissan of the obligation it had to disclose this unusual policy before I bought my LEAF (from my 2011 lease) in 2012.
 
I believe your statement is false.

AFAIK, every other core charge is made when a core is not returned, a decision which is left entirely at the option of the owner/buyer.

Nope, for high value parts that can be resold as reconditioned, it is the norm.

You may be thinking of stuff like batteries, or alternators, little stuff like that. But if your automatic transmission needs replacing, the old part goes back for refurb.
 
OrientExpress said:
I believe your statement is false.

AFAIK, every other core charge is made when a core is not returned, a decision which is left entirely at the option of the owner/buyer.
Nope, for high value parts that can be resold as reconditioned, it is the norm...
Then what is the norm when a core part is in such poor shape that it cannot be reconditioned?
You are saying that you are then not even permitted to buy the replacement part?

Why would a vendor even name a core charge, if it could never be charged?

In any case, since the re-purposing of LEAF batteries was included in Nissan's 2011 MY sales pitch, if Nissan intended to block LEAF owners from doing just that it should have been disclosed at the time of sale of the LEAF, and the pack.

There was no hint from Nissan back in 2011-12 that it would ever place this condition on buyers of replacement packs, when the requirement arose.
 
Then what is the norm when a core part is in such poor shape that it cannot be reconditioned?
You are saying that you are then not even permitted to buy the part?

In any case, since the re-purposing of LEAF batteries was included in Nissan's 2011 MY sales pitch, if Nissan intended to block LEAF owners from doing just that it should have been disclosed at the time of sale of the LEAF, and the pack.

There was no hint from Nissan back in 2011 that it would ever place conditions on buyers of replacement packs, when the requirement arose.

It is not the decision at the field level to determine the serviceability of a part. That decision is made at the depot level. And yes there are parts that once they are examined at the depot, that are deemed not be able to be refurbished. Those major assemblies are usually broken down into their component parts and recycled.

The concept of refurbishing packs for reuse is still valid and is done by Nissan, it is just not something that is considered to be an end-user activity. The same applies for other large expensive major components like automatic transmissions that require special tools or equipment for repair.

However there is an eBay marketplace for salvaged LEAF batteries that might have the parts that you are looking for.
 
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