GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:49 pm

Stoaty wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:28 pm
GRA wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:13 pm
GCC:
Toyota and ride-pooling startup CleverShuttle travel >2M km in Germany with the Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan Mirai
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... uttle.html


2 years, 45 Mirais, 2.2M km. 15 months to reach 1st million. Started with 20 Mirais in Hamburg, then expanded to 45 and added Munich and Stuttgart.
How was the hydrogen produced? Fossil fuels?

Probably, but I don't know, nor do I know if Germany has a RFS for H2 such as California does. I do know that Germany has been developing H2 production facilities using excess wind for electrolysis - Linde has a demo plant in Mainz using (wind) power to gas, and there may be others. This article describes some of the work, the politics, and the issues that will have to be dealt with:
Germany eager to become global leader in developing hydrogen technologies
https://www.euractiv.com/section/climat ... hnologies/


Also see this article:
RENEWABLES 25 February 2019 16:00
Renewable hydrogen ‘already cost competitive’, say researchers
https://www.carbonbrief.org/renewable-h ... esearchers

Whether or how long it will take to be competitive outside of niches is anybody's guess (the article gives theirs).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:00 am

Teslas has shown with their 75 and 100kwh batteries, active cooling and some charging ststions pretty much makes the hydrogen fuel cell obsolete for autos.
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:54 pm

As has been discussed endlessly in this topic, that's an opinion not shared by everyone.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:50 pm

Have they found anything to make fuel cells out of that isn't depending on something in the top 8 rarest elements in the earth's crust?
Because even with out fuel cells gobbling up tons of rare precious metals the 20 year forecast is for availability to go down and the price to soar on fuel cell metals in use now.
If they depend on metals that cost $3,000 to $10,000 per troy ounce then they are dead on arrival.
Last edited by Oilpan4 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:56 pm

Feel free to read any of the thousands of posts that make up this topic, many of which discuss these and numerous other issues. If you're specifically referring to Pt, aside from numerous posts discussing how the amount per stack has been steadily decreasing and how research on non-Pt cells is progressing, the U.s. spot price per oz. on the U.S. market just now was $963.10, not "$3,000 to $10,000".

As far as how much that might cost per car, here's a quote from an article in May discussing Bosch's new cells:
Bosch's new hydrogen fuel cells use a drastically reduced amount of platinum, Reuters reported Sunday. The major auto supplier, which recently partnered with Sweden's Powercell, is working on a new fuel cell architecture that, according to Reuters' report, will "use only as much platinum as a diesel catalytic converter."

The average amount of a platinum in a hydrogen fuel cell, according to Reuters' conversations with analysts, is between 30 and 60 grams. Diesel catalytic converters, on the other hand, only use between 3 and 7 grams of the shiny stuff. At today's price of $27.54 per gram, that would reduce the platinum cost in each car from about $830 to about $83.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosc ... um-report/

I believe I posted a link to another article reporting this story up-topic [Edit. Found it]: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&start=4210#p557335

While I'm at it, from Sep. 4th:
China wants 1 million FCEVs on their roads by 2030
https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/04/ch ... s-by-2030/

The interim target is 50k in 2025.
Last edited by GRA on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Wasn't talking about today's price of platinum since fuel cell construction uses a negligible amount of platinum now.
I'm well aware of what the price of platinum is now and where it will likely go as I own pounds of it. I watch the price and read the mining news at least daily.

So 3 to 7 grams times how potentially how many millions of cars?
They could build between 10 and maybe 20 cars per ounce.

I think it would be great anything that raises the price of platinum and keeps it high helps secure my retirement.
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:18 pm

See my previous post with the part I appended. Obviously, China doesn't feel that the price/availability of Pt will be a limiting factor soon if ever.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:27 pm

GCC:
Report: Hydrogen ministerial meeting to call for 10M fuel cell vehicles in 10 years
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... 23-h2.html
. . .Currently, only around 10,000 vehicles around the world run on fuel cells.

Japanese Industry Minister Isshu Sugawara will chair the meeting that will be attended by officials from the US, Europe and the Mideast. The Nikkei said that the Minister included the 10 million goal in his draft chairman’s statement, which also includes a goal to increase the number of hydrogen fueling stations to 10,000 in 10 years. There are now several hundred fueling stations globally.

The goal of 10 million vehicles is not a commitment, but an ambitious, common global target. The chairman’s statement will also include a call for common standards and research agenda, the Nikkei said. . . .

Obviously, any such ramp up will be dependent on lowering the cost of sustainably-produced H2 (and/or raising the cost of fossil-fuels through carbon or other taxes).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:28 pm

GRA wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:27 pm
Obviously, any such ramp up will be dependent on lowering the cost of sustainably-produced H2 (and/or raising the cost of fossil-fuels through carbon or other taxes).
Notice that the ratio between sustainably produced electric power and H2 isn't mentioned.

Hydrogen has a future, but it's not vehicles. Oh, maybe some exceptions. Rocket launches, almost for sure. Medium range aircraft, perhaps. Maybe even long range trucking. And cars are a cheap test platform for development. But put the hydrogen car up there with the flying car. You can build a few, but not practical.
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Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:13 am

Fuel cell is another option.
300kwh+ long range or darn near unlimited range pure electric cars may not be practical.
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