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surfingslovak
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:51 am

Image
edatoakrun wrote:If you can't use use CarWings, you may find yourself just as incompetent as Tony Williams, and posting the same "total Bullshit" regarding LEAF range and battery capacity questions as he does.
Nice, never miss an opportunity for an ad hominem attack.
edatoakrun wrote:For more info on the range test methodology, the roads, and the elevation profile, see:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many of the early LEAFs had skewed CarWings reporting, which I'm sure you are aware of. Yes, this can be addressed by a TSB, but it's not considered a mandatory update, and a number of owners had to put some effort into getting it. We don't know the 2013 trim sales mix, but judging by the posts here, a significant number of new LEAFs will be the stripper model without telematics. While the dash gauges are not perfect, as many regulars here will readily admit, we need to find a way to live with them and work with the results. CarWings can provide interesting complementary information, but I would not go as far dismiss dash instruments completely and insist that CarWings is the only way to go.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:22 pm

surfingslovak wrote:Image
edatoakrun wrote:If you can't use use CarWings, you may find yourself just as incompetent as Tony Williams, and posting the same "total Bullshit" regarding LEAF range and battery capacity questions as he does.
Nice, never miss an opportunity for an ad hominem attack.
edatoakrun wrote:For more info on the range test methodology, the roads, and the elevation profile, see:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many of the early LEAFs had skewed CarWings reporting, which I'm sure you are aware of. Yes, this can be addressed by a TSB, but it's not considered a mandatory update, and a number of owners had to put some effort into getting it. We don't know the 2013 trim sales mix, but judging by the posts here, a significant number of new LEAFs will be the stripper model without telematics. While the dash gauges are not perfect, as many regulars here will readily admit, we need to find a way to live with them and work with the results. CarWings can provide interesting complementary information, but I would not go as far dismiss dash instruments completely and insist that CarWings is the only way to go.
logged into Carwings for first time since last Fall (or maybe Summer) and MTD have traveled 1857 miles (a bit short but it is delayed a few days) @ 5.6 miles/kwh which is quite frankly not even in the ballpark.

when i asked about the Carwings update a year or so ago, i was told that my VIN was not in the correct range. since i only need it for text alerts on charging status, i let it go.

P.S. must be the weather (about 65 and gorgeous today!) but I am ranked 22nd in the world for distance traveled but only 4th in the Pac NW... guess i didnt drive as much as i thought i did... ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LEAFfan
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:36 pm

surfingslovak wrote:Image
edatoakrun wrote:If you can't use use CarWings, you may find yourself just as incompetent as Tony Williams, and posting the same "total Bullshit" regarding LEAF range and battery capacity questions as he does.
Nice, never miss an opportunity for an ad hominem attack.
edatoakrun wrote:For more info on the range test methodology, the roads, and the elevation profile, see:
III
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many of the early LEAFs had skewed CarWings reporting, which I'm sure you are aware of. Yes, this can be addressed by a TSB, but it's not considered a mandatory update, and a number of owners had to put some effort into getting it. We don't know the 2013 trim sales mix, but judging by the posts here, a significant number of new LEAFs will be the stripper model without telematics. While the dash gauges are not perfect, as many regulars here will readily admit, we need to find a way to live with them and work with the results. CarWings can provide interesting complementary information, but I would not go as far dismiss dash instruments completely and insist that CarWings is the only way to go.
Thanks George! That was very well put. Ed is the only one on here that likes CWs for delayed and erroneous data. I don't care for the.two day delay either. Again to Ed, MY m/kW h gauges have ALWAYS been extremely accurate and my BCM confirms it. I would never want to rely on delayed and inaccurate data from CWs.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

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ttweed
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:16 pm

edatoakrun wrote:If you, "LEAFfan", or anyone else has ever actually experienced anything different from CarWings than as described above, please report exactly what it is you are seeing.
[multiquote]
Carwings is a much more accurate source of energy use data than your dash gauges.
Ed,
I have tried to follow your extensive and detailed arguments in multiple threads about using Carwings data to establish battery capacity loss, and I have to say I am totally confused about what you are trying to say. What element of the CW data is more accurate than the dash or nav figures regarding energy use efficiency, exactly, and why?

We have over 29,000 miles on our car, by the odometer. It has had all the firmware updates applicable to the VIN, and we have pushed "OK" religiously every day to allow Carwings to collect our data. Carwings reports that we have traveled a total of 27,927 miles, using 4417.3 kWh of energy in the process, for an average of 6.32 m/kWh over that period.

My nav system energy history has never been reset in that two years, and it reports an energy economy average of 4.5 m/kWh. My dashboard energy economy average was never reset until 27,000 miles (when I replaced the tires) and it read 4.4 m/kWh at that time. Since then, it is reporting 4.1 m/kWh average, which I attribute to the new Kumho Ecowing tires being less efficient over the last 2,000 miles.

We have a Blink charger installed in the garage on a separate TOU meter which has been used to charge the Leaf almost exclusively during the last 2 years. From our SDG&E billing, we have fairly complete records of our "from the wall" energy usage for this period. Even ignoring the small amount of opportunity charging we have done (which would probably cancel out the preheating/cooling we have done in the garage while not driving) the Leaf has consumed over 8,000 kWh from the wall in those 29,000 miles. Allowing for 90% charging efficiency (which seems to be the consensus from what I have read here), we have put at least 7200 kWh into the battery, which would indicate about 4 m/kWh average efficiency. If charging efficiency is actually higher or lower, that figure would have to be adjusted accordingly, but I would be surprised if it was off by more than .5 m/kWh.

So Ed, how do you explain the large discrepancy in these energy efficiency numbers reported by Carwings as compared to the dashboard, the nav, and the "from the wall" efficiency figures we have experienced with our car over an extended period of time? The definite outlier is the 6.32 m/kWh CW figure, and I do not understand how that can be touted as the "most accurate." It is fully 50% higher than the more realistic numbers from the dash, nav and FTW usage figures, which average 4.2 m/kWh. It appears to gain this higher efficiency by calculating an unrealistic savings from regeneration which is completely out of proportion to my real-world experience. Why is this a better or more accurate number to use in your battery capacity calculations? What am I missing?

Yesterday, our car drove ~70 miles by the odometer from 100% charge to below VLBW ("---" on the Guessometer, but no turtle mode), with most of those miles on the freeway at 65mph. Our car has all 12 capacity bars still showing, so I assume that we have not yet lost 15% capacity. If the car is really capable of 6 m/kWh efficiency, as Carwings reported for the trip, we used only 11.6kWh. Is that a realistic number to use to estimate the battery's capacity? That would indicate it has degraded almost 50% from the original 21.5 kWh (or whatever it was when new), and that I should have been able to drive 130 miles on a 100% charge when it was new, neither of which are realistic figures. I have never trusted those CW numbers, and don't understand why you do. How is it that the top ranking drivers achieve in excess of 20 m/kWh in my region? Do they only drive downhill or something?

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
2011 SLe #1317 del. 4/1/11
1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
Battery replaced at 61,307 miles.

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DaveEV
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:53 pm

Tom, you do need NTB-11-041 applied to your car - applies to LEAFs built before 6/1/2011 with a VIN below 5518. Info on the saga in getting this applied to my car here which also has a bunch of other info on the details of the update: NTB-11-041 Telematics Connection Fix - dealer says no.

Since the update CARWINGs agrees with my instrument meter either exactly or within 0.1 mi/kWh every time I have checked.

LEAFfan
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:10 pm

Tom, they don't have to go downhill to get those ridiculous numbers. They can coast in N on flat terrain and while coasting, reset the mpkW and it will record very high numbers. Then they can either keep coasting to their destination or turn off the telematics before the number goes back to normal. By just coasting, I hit 62m/kW h on the dash, but I always leave the telematics on so fairly quickly it goes back to normal, 5.8-6.0.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

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ttweed
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 am

drees wrote:Tom, you do need NTB-11-041 applied to your car - applies to LEAFs built before 6/1/2011 with a VIN below 5518. Info on the saga in getting this applied to my car here which also has a bunch of other info on the details of the update: NTB-11-041 Telematics Connection Fix - dealer says no.

Since the update CARWINGs agrees with my instrument meter either exactly or within 0.1 mi/kWh every time I have checked.
We asked them to do the 11-041 telematics update when we took the car in for the first battery check a year ago--apparently they didn't do it if it fixes the whacked CW data, which is still the same as it ever was. I'll have to check my version numbers on the diagnostics screen to see, I guess.

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
2011 SLe #1317 del. 4/1/11
1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
Battery replaced at 61,307 miles.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:51 am

surfingslovak wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:If you can't use use CarWings, you may find yourself just as incompetent as Tony Williams, and posting the same "total Bullshit" regarding LEAF range and battery capacity questions as he does.
Nice, never miss an opportunity for an ad hominem attack.
It must really P.O. Mr. Ed to be so irrelevant. He just generally seems to be spirally into a "smoking hole" as we say in the plane business.

It's almost comical that he has picked little ole me to be his arch enemy!!! I think the boil on my ass will pop soon, though.

edatoakrun
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:28 am

ttweed wrote:
...Ed,
I have tried to follow your extensive and detailed arguments in multiple threads about using Carwings data to establish battery capacity loss, and I have to say I am totally confused about what you are trying to say. What element of the CW data is more accurate than the dash or nav figures regarding energy use efficiency, exactly, and why?..


TT
First off, as others have noted, it looks like you (and several other of the recent commentators) never had your CW updated.

See the Xpost below for threads explaining what this means.

Since there is partial CW data from camasleaf's range test posted on that thread, I'll try to answer the rest of your questions above on another (on-topic) thread, using the CW and dash and navscreen m/kWh data from camasleaf's range tests and my own, as time permits. I can understand why it is confusing, and it may be nearly incomprehensible, if you do not have (more) accurate CW reports from your own LEAF to refer to.

Get the NTB11-041 update!


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

OK camasleaf, what you have inadvertently demonstrated, IMO, is how much less accurate your kWh use results from a range test will be if you do not have functional CW...

For other early 2011 LEAFers, please review the ancient history below, on why you need NTB11-041, and how Nissan has (apparently) made this update difficult to get.

As I posted earlier, Since I had the Carwings update done on 8/3(11), my Dash and Carwings miles/kWh numbers seem to match.

Even more interestingly, the daily Driving Records/electricity consumption now seem to accurately reflect the kWh delivered from my Modified L2, as best as I can calculate by recharge time.

Has anyone tried a 100% charge to Turtle discharge drive since having the update?

What total electricity consumption (kWh) did carwings report-and do you believe it to accurately reflect total battery capacity?

If you have a meter at the wall, what L2 charging efficiency percentage did it show for your recharge, using the Carwings energy consumption report?

My carwings energy numbers - CORRECT post NTB11-041 update

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


NTB-11-041 Telematics Connection Fix - dealer says no

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
no condition is permanent

scottfamily
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Re: 74 miles on a single charge?

Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:04 pm

We just recently received our '13 Leaf and had no experience with electric vehicles prior to this. The first week was very unnerving as we tried to understand why the range remaining seemed to be going down so much quicker than the distance we were going. We have now read many posts and have a better sense of how to get higher range but still question how we could ever get even 70 miles on a charge (driving in B and with Eco). I honestly would never want to go anywhere close to the range max in the first few weeks until you adjust to driving the vehicle.

Tell the dealership to bring the car to you or make sure you have your phone with you and the Nissan # to call if you don't make it home on that charge. Also, regarding any of the commercial charging stations around, at least in our area of North Carolina, they don't accept credit cards, you need a special "Charge Point" charging card that you order in advance.

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