cwerdna
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

Don't know why GRA isn't receiving the JDPA's survey. If I receive it again, I can try to take some screenshots.

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GRA
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

cwerdna wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:06 am Don't know why GRA isn't receiving the JDPA's survey. If I receive it again, I can try to take some screenshots.
Thanks, but no need to go out of your way - it's not a big deal, as they've got plenty of other people answering them. Also, I've had some extensive emails with Plugshare CS directly, trying to get them to add a Rivian network, put Rivian in restricted category and/or automatically filter them out if you've entered a non-Rivian CCS car type (Chargeway offers both a Rivian network and auto-filtering, Chargehub just the network), until Rivian opens up their DCFCs to all CCS cars. Plugshare CS tells me they'd do it if it were up to them, but apparently their corporate masters are trying to get some kind of partnership with Rivian as they have with other networks (I assume that means "give us some money") before they'll do so, even though each Rivian site listing already has "Rivian Drivers Only" above the name.

While I and most experienced users know to always check a CCS site listing on Plugshare before planning on using it to see if it's a Rivian site, many newbies won't, and I'm concerned that they might get stranded. I pointed out to Plugshare that the object of their site and app was to make finding compatible, functioning chargers as easy as possible, but apparently that's not the company's first priority. Maybe if enough people complain to them we can get this fixed, because the work is trivial. They've added 5 networks since I first asked for this last February, when they just gave me an anodyne response that they were working on it, equivalent to a pat on the head and hoping I'd go away. As it is, I've already had to warn two sets of newbie friends that they couldn't use some sites they were planning on. One had to re-route, the other was able to find another site to use (but only a single charger, so taking a chance).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
WetEV
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

GRA wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am When you say you "put in a review", do you mean when you checked in?
Yes. Sigh. A "review" is the general term for what Plugshare calls a "check in". I've put in reviews on other stations, do not always get a link. And haven't followed the link all the time.


GRA wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am


Sure, that's true of any self-selected review. Doesn't change the fact that the percentage of satisfied customers is decreasing.. There are far more people with PEVs now and experience of using public chargers. Whether the lower scores are due to the chargers themselves being more likely to be down or busy, people are more experienced now and so it's not an adventure anymore and they're less willing to put up with poor service/waiting, and/or some other factor, I couldn't say.



See above.
Didn't read what I wrote, or just didn't care to respond?


If old, lower power chargers were failing, then the average power of the remaining chargers would be higher. That's not what happened.


Some new chargers were down, a lot. Not the old ones. Then the same units were set to 50kW. Didn't notice? Get out more.

EA has at least four brands of chargers. Reliability, and the type of problem to expect, varies between them.

Even in the brand that was failing, there are multiple versions. Version 1 is reliable. Version 2 is the problem. Version 3 seems to match the reliability of version 1.

As far as I know: Not publicly documented by EA, or the charger manufacturer. Or anyone else. Oh wait, there is a reddit thread on it. As you might have guessed.

You could have figured it out if you had been looking through Plugshare's "check ins", aka reviews. As I do before a trip. Shouldn't have to, but has saved me enough times I'm not stopping.


I didn't take a trip this spring as I would need to rely on a site with Version 2. All stations at this location were down hard at times, and people stuck overnight or longer, charging at campgrounds. No L3 chargers in a reasonable range. No L2 chargers in town. Talk to the town clerk, 9 to 5 M to F, and rent a plug in the town park. Rent an RV spot at several places. The older chargers like I used last year had one specific problem. Replaced with the worst unit for reliability I've ever seen. After I canceled our plans, this location became more reliable on plugshare. Was now 40 kW to 50 kW, however, when expecting 150 kW or 350 kW is a real charging speed complaint. Then recently the charge rate has been turned back up.

This wasn't a "no maintainance" problem, EA's people were traveling to this remote site frequently. And still are.

A recent comment:
<location> is down to one functioning charger! Don’t rely on it for road trips. Last guy to charge said he’d spoken with customer support and tried resetting every unit that could be. ETA for a fix went something like: “Well, in a year these units will all be replaced.” So don’t expect a fix any time soon. Good luck gang."
This is a huge problem with EA, communication with drivers should be rule #1. I've read several people making the comment that this issue is why Ford switched to NACS. I don't know, might be.

GRA wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am I think another factor is that chargers are aging, so lots of older ones are failing. Combine that with slow or no maintenance on many of them, even when problems have been reported to the network or site owner, and it's not surprising that people are losing patience. Add to that there are more PEVs with bigger packs that can charge far faster now than the many 50-62.5kW DCFCs (including most CP chargers) allow. Those chargers are still out there, especially in rural areas with fewer sites and fewer chargers per site.
What you think and reality can be different.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red (Sold)
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cwerdna
Posts: 13579
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

Re: EA brands, yes, they are listed at https://insideevs.com/news/389891/exclu ... solutions/: ABB, BTC, Signet, and Efacec.

I think Efacec is a goner. A lot (all?) of those have been ripped and replaced w/something else. ABB units I've seen all over the place have been replaced by their next gen units where the dispensers can come from BTC Power or SK Signet.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 09#p626309 has a pointer to a visual aid of the 4 brands then a Signet v2.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/78995 has 3 of the next gen units and a lone ABB. If you look at the old photos, the 3 next gens replaced 3 ABB. I have charged there before when it was already next gen.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/78995 also has went from ABB to next gen. I've charged there at least once or twice when it was ABB. Ditto about the switch at https://www.plugshare.com/location/197258. I charged there when it was ABB.

I've never charged at https://www.plugshare.com/location/198229 but it has a mix of Signet v1 and v2.

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

WetEV wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:07 pm
GRA wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am When you say you "put in a review", do you mean when you checked in?
Yes. Sigh. A "review" is the general term for what Plugshare calls a "check in". I've put in reviews on other stations, do not always get a link. And haven't followed the link all the time.
Okay, just making sure we're meaning the same thing. I did 6 or 7 Plugshare check-ins just on my last two trips, never gotten a link. I do them regularly for chargers in remote areas if there haven't been any recent ones, because they can be so critical. Also for "Coming soon" sites in the same areas to report progress, or more typically the lack of any.

GRA wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am
Sure, that's true of any self-selected review. Doesn't change the fact that the percentage of satisfied customers is decreasing.. There are far more people with PEVs now and experience of using public chargers. Whether the lower scores are due to the chargers themselves being more likely to be down or busy, people are more experienced now and so it's not an adventure anymore and they're less willing to put up with poor service/waiting, and/or some other factor, I couldn't say.


See above.
Didn't read what I wrote, or just didn't care to respond?


If old, lower power chargers were failing, then the average power of the remaining chargers would be higher. That's not what happened.


Some new chargers were down, a lot. Not the old ones. Then the same units were set to 50kW. Didn't notice? Get out more.
I've noticed the EA chargers with power reduced to 50kW. Is there some need for snark? I've also been seeing more CP chargers U/S or failing to activate, with their original power settings. And from what I'm seeing on Plugshare, the Greenlots and to a slightly lesser extent EV Connect DCFCs have never been reliable - these sites are typically only one or two chargers in rural, low traffic areas, and when they go down they tend to be down for a long time. Issues aren't limited to EA.

EA has at least four brands of chargers. Reliability, and the type of problem to expect, varies between them.

Even in the brand that was failing, there are multiple versions. Version 1 is reliable. Version 2 is the problem. Version 3 seems to match the reliability of version 1.

As far as I know: Not publicly documented by EA, or the charger manufacturer. Or anyone else. Oh wait, there is a reddit thread on it. As you might have guessed.

You could have figured it out if you had been looking through Plugshare's "check ins", aka reviews. As I do before a trip. Shouldn't have to, but has saved me enough times I'm not stopping.
I look through check-ins on routes I will be using, as well as those I might or have to divert to before every trip (and during), because I know that counting on some or all chargers at a site to be working isn't a good idea. I also browse them on routes I want to use in the future (and have driven in the past in ICEs), to decide if that trip has reached the stage of reasonable risk. That's the reality we have to deal with, as long as there are a limited number of charging options in an area. Once there's more competition and a profitable business case, matters should improve. I expect the new 7-manufacturer charging network will be a major improvement, because they will be building and operating a network for the same reason Tesla did (and in competition with them) - they have to in order to sell cars, now that they're deriving a large and increasing % of their income from PEVs rather than ICEs.

I didn't take a trip this spring as I would need to rely on a site with Version 2. All stations at this location were down hard at times, and people stuck overnight or longer, charging at campgrounds. No L3 chargers in a reasonable range. No L2 chargers in town. Talk to the town clerk, 9 to 5 M to F, and rent a plug in the town park. Rent an RV spot at several places. The older chargers like I used last year had one specific problem. Replaced with the worst unit for reliability I've ever seen. After I canceled our plans, this location became more reliable on plugshare. Was now 40 kW to 50 kW, however, when expecting 150 kW or 350 kW is a real charging speed complaint. Then recently the charge rate has been turned back up.

This wasn't a "no maintainance" problem, EA's people were traveling to this remote site frequently. And still are.

A recent comment:
<location> is down to one functioning charger! Don’t rely on it for road trips. Last guy to charge said he’d spoken with customer support and tried resetting every unit that could be. ETA for a fix went something like: “Well, in a year these units will all be replaced.” So don’t expect a fix any time soon. Good luck gang."
This is a huge problem with EA, communication with drivers should be rule #1. I've read several people making the comment that this issue is why Ford switched to NACS. I don't know, might be.
From check-ins I've read and my own experiences, I don't see other companies (can't speak for Tesla, but then they've been doing a better job all along) doing a better job of communication. EA's customer support people are very pleasant when you call them to try to activate a charge, not that it makes them any more effective. But at least they answer the phone.

GRA wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am I think another factor is that chargers are aging, so lots of older ones are failing. Combine that with slow or no maintenance on many of them, even when problems have been reported to the network or site owner, and it's not surprising that people are losing patience. Add to that there are more PEVs with bigger packs that can charge far faster now than the many 50-62.5kW DCFCs (including most CP chargers) allow. Those chargers are still out there, especially in rural areas with fewer sites and fewer chargers per site.
What you think and reality can be different.
As is true of anyone.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
WetEV
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

cwerdna wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:25 pm I've never charged at https://www.plugshare.com/location/198229 but it has a mix of Signet v1 and v2.
Here is a Signet v3

(corrected)
https://www.plugshare.com/location/186843
Last edited by WetEV on Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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cwerdna
Posts: 13579
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

WetEV wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:42 pm Here is a Signet v3

https://www.plugshare.com/location/296759
I've charged at that site + numerous others w/that variant (e.g. some near home + https://www.plugshare.com/location/342680 down in Culver City). I consider those to be Signet v2.

Rightmost pic at https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/dcfc- ... 49&slide=6 seems to be Signet v1. I've never seen one in person but I know they exist.

Do you have examples of what you consider to to be Signet v1 and v2? It's possible I'm unaware of some other version...

I’m only talking about the versions EA uses, not Signet found on other networks.

Kyle of Out Spec Reviews had alluded to the next gen dispensers coming from either BTC Power or SK Signet. I don't recall about the chargers themselves (behind a fence).

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-6867023 is a next gen w/BTC Power dispensers. See Jan 1, 2023 pics at https://www.plugshare.com/location/186852 of next gen dispensers made by SK Signet. I took those night time Jan 1st pics and was charging there. Got complimentary session juice on the way home from Lompoc and Hearst Castle.

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WetEV
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

cwerdna wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:15 pm
WetEV wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:42 pm Here is a Signet v3

https://www.plugshare.com/location/296759
I've charged at that site

Ah. Sorry. Cut and paste error, failure to cut it seems. Try this.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/186843

Notice one cable/plug.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red (Sold)
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cwerdna
Posts: 13579
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

^^^
Yes, those are the "next gen" units.

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/175
https://media.electrifyamerica.com/asse ... arging.pdf

Those next gen dispensers can come from SK Signet or BTC Power. And yeah, I used them and took night time pics on Jan 1, 2023 at https://www.plugshare.com/location/186852. It is interesting they decided to go with 1 cable per dispenser vs. all their non-next gens had 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho1xelQsPQs is a video from 8 months ago about the next gens. Maybe skip to 7:45 about the co-development with SK Signet and BTC Power. I watched this long ago and apparently posted about it at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 05#p628005.

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cwerdna
Posts: 13579
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Re: GCC: J.D. Power: public charging issues may short-circuit EV growth

GRA wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:24 pm Given a few more DCFC locations nearby (one's planned in Lee Vining by Rivian, another is an SC site which will hopefully be opened up to CCS cars), much of their angst and hopefully a lot of the extra time and hassle should be relieved,
Since I learned Lee Vinning from you, I figured you'd be interested in https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/calif ... ost-896053 but you already knew about it being Rivian only.

Anyway, maybe you'd like that thread, in general if you didn't know about it already.

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
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