Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

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LeftieBiker said:
It would be covered under the EV drivetrain warranty, I guess. That expired after 5 years....?

Does not appear so:
EV System Coverage applies to components listed below under the heading EV System, supplied by Nissan, subject to the exclusions listed under the heading WHAT IS NOT COVERED

EV SYSTEM:
Motor, Inverter unit, VCM, Reduction gear, DC/DC converter, Onboard charger, Onboard charger connector, and Trickle charge cable.



BCM is not listed, and as such, I would argue it's not part of the "EV SYSTEM" as defined in the warranty.
 
I would argue the LBC (lithium battery controller is Nissan's name for the battery management system or BMS) is contained within the battery case and is therefore part of the battery. The only exclusions in the warranty guide are gradual capacity loss and damage caused by accident, flooding, and exposure to extreme temperatures. Opening of the battery case by other than Nissan Certified LEAF Technician voids the warranty which also implies everything inside is part of the battery.
 
It's certainly one for the lawyers. The BMS/LBC isn't named in the warranty, and is inside the pack housing, but the terms "controller" and "battery management system" are not synonymous with "battery." I can't help but think of a similar game that manufacturers play with IC engine warranties: they will specify "all oil-lubricated parts" of the engine's interior as being covered by long-term warranties, thus excluding the water pump and all of the electronic parts, along with virtually all of the fuel system...
 
Lothsahn said:
Don't open the battery yourself. That will void the warranty.

I just checked my 2011 Leaf (with a 2015 pack and 2015 BMS). At 72% SOC, I'm showing the average voltage to be 4.021V, minimum 4.017 and maximum 4.026 (9mv min/max). I do not believe your cells are overcharged.

It's crazy that they won't cover this under warranty. This is clearly a failure of the lithium ion battery. Do you have to call the EV help line for coverage info? Can you just work through the dealership? Is the dealership referring you to the EV help line for something?

I will not be working on the battery while it is still under warranty, which is through 9/2021 if I remember the delivery date to first owner correctly.

Thanks for the voltage check. These cell must have a very flat initial discharge curve, which might explain how cell #44 can look normal at higher SOC.

Yes, it is crazy. Or there is something perturbing their willingness to back their own warranty.

GerryAZ said:
I would argue the LBC (lithium battery controller is Nissan's name for the battery management system or BMS) is contained within the battery case and is therefore part of the battery. The only exclusions in the warranty guide are gradual capacity loss and damage caused by accident, flooding, and exposure to extreme temperatures. Opening of the battery case by other than Nissan Certified LEAF Technician voids the warranty which also implies everything inside is part of the battery.

And there is the warranty explained in their own language--opening the battery case voids the warranty, so what is inside is what is warrantied. They would have had to include language like "except to replace a non-warrantied item from this list...". Thanks for pointing this out.
 
Lothsahn said:
I would get a video of the behavior of your car when it goes into turtle suddenly. I would take a copy of the video into the dealership along with a printed copy of the warranty booklet, and tell them this is a safety issue resulting from a faulty battery. If they refuse, I would ask which specific criteria excludes this from being a warranty issue. Get everything in writing.

I would then take the car to another dealership in your area with a good reputation. See if they can somehow get something done. If not, I would get the rejection in writing from them as well. It's really absurd--I've seen a number of people post on the forums with problems and symptoms very similar to yours, and they got the battery repaired in days.

Currently the car does not enter turtle while driving. It either starts up with turtle, the EV warning symbol, and the "power is being limited" audio. Even in turtle it still has about 20 kw power which is more than enough to safely drive local flat roads at the posted 30 mph.

I love the video idea though. This morning I got in the car, turned it on, had the turtle etc. Turned it off, then back on 10 seconds later, still turtle, turned it off, then back on, voila, no turtle. Based on experience the past month, as long as it is not turned off, it will remain turtleless. I will try and get a video of this and post on youtube or something. Car is at 68% according to the dashboard meter.

Getting to another dealership is an option, but won't fix the blockage at Nissan EV Customer Service line. And I don't think it is the dealership that is making the decision on this.
 
I just went back and looked at the 2013 warranty, https://www.nissanusa.com/content/d...af/2013/2013-Nissan-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf (sse page 3) and there is an explicit pathway to move this along, ending in the BBB Autoline. I will follow this and document things going forward.

I really believe that when Nissan says " Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage" in the warranty, they are referring to the same part of the vehicle that they are describing in all of their advertising, such as this https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/features/range-charging-battery.html where they say it has a "62 kWh battery for 214 HP". The noun is singular, and if for some reason they intend to warranty only the modules, they would have said something like "Lithium-Ion Batteries Coverage". Plural not singular.

And I do not believe that a defective cell #44 has been ruled out in any way either.

Thanks for all the input above.
 
MikeinPA said:
Thanks for the voltage check. These cell must have a very flat initial discharge curve, which might explain how cell #44 can look normal at higher SOC.

Voltage discharge curve for Leaf packs here:
https://pushevs.com/2018/01/29/2018-nissan-leaf-battery-real-specs/

(top graph is for 40 kWh packs, bottom graphs are for 24 kWh packs)

And yes, the discharge curve is quite flat, until the battery hits a low state of charge, typically around the VLBW. This is why you'll typically see <25 mv deltas which can rise to hundreds of mv when the pack is in a VLBW state. This is confusing to many people. If you see deltas of >100mv at 50% SOC or more, that's definitely a weak cell. However, the same 100mv delta at 7% SOC doesn't necessarily indicate a problem with a cell. Also, if a cell is replaced with a brand new cell, you will almost always see a significant voltage differential with that cell because the brand new cell generally has a higher capacity than the rest of the (degraded) pack.

And while your cell #44 (presumably 91 & 92) on Leafspy is weaker than the rest, I would not expect it to cause the turtle issues you're seeing. The voltage is still far above the minimum voltage cutoff (2.7V/cell or 3V/cell, IFIRC) that would normally trigger a turtle. I believe there is something else going on in addition to that cell being weak--and possibly causing the cell to be weak (such as a faulty BMS).
 
While looking at the capacity warranty section, on page 8 of the 2013 Leaf warranty, I realized that Nissan has explicitly defined what they consider to be the "LITHIUM–ION BATTERY", that is, the item receiving a 8 year materials and defect warranty described on page 7. Direct quote from the 2013 capacity warranty page 8 (emphasis added by me): "This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the Lithium-Ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion battery." So that's it, by their own warranty, they have defined the "LITHIUM–ION BATTERY" as the thing that gets taken out of and hopefully returned to the vehicle, and the things inside as "components". In particular, to replace capacity they will be replacing cells, and they have defined these as "components"--not the battery--so the idea that only the cells are covered under the 8 year warranty is doubly not credible . Warranty is here: https://www.nissanusa.com/content/d...af/2013/2013-Nissan-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf

(excerpt from the warranty, begins on lower right of page 7 and flows to page 8):

LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty covers any repairs needed to correct defects in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions listed under the heading “WHAT IS NOT COVERED”. This warranty period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

(Continued on next page)

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the Lithium-Ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the Lithium-Ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the Lithium-Ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your Lithium-Ion battery to an “as new” condition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.
This Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage is subject to the exclusions listed under the heading “WHAT IS NOT COVERED.”

(excerpt ends)
 
I wholeheartedly agree that the LBS/BMS should be covered, but the problem with the above is that it is an interpretation of what the warranty says - there is no explicit mention of the LBC in the warranty. 'Battery Components' can mean the cells and the cells alone, if you define "battery" the most common way - as a collection of cells. I'm writing this to forewarn and thus fore-arm you against what Nissan would say in court. I suggest BBB arbitration, for two reasons: first, Nissan has been ordered by the BBB to replace batteries in the past and they have done so. Second, Nissan has sometimes given in to a BBB opinion even earlier in the process, IIRC, and may do so in your case. They might at least offer a 50/50 deal.
 
LeftieBiker said:
'Battery Components' can mean the cells and the cells alone,

Yes, perhaps they could choose to vary the definition of "battery components" in the 5-year capacity warranty, that is besides the point, the point is that through the language in their warranty, they have completely described and labeled the Venn diagram of what the Lithium-Ion Battery is and where the components go inside that. It is the definition of Lithium-Ion Battery that matters with respect to the 8-year warranty.

So far, the people at the EV help line are declining to provide warranty repair for parts inside the battery under 8-year warranty for materials and workmanship. I have asked for written documentation for this, waiting on that. The implication is that they have decided that the LBC is not contained within their definition of the Lithium-Ion Battery, but that view cannot be reconciled with the Venn diagram put forth absolutely in their own warranty descriptions. The 8-year warranty applies to the Lithium-Ion Battery, and their warranty language repeatedly defines the Lithium-Ion Battery as the superset within which components reside. There are no alternative Venn diagrams consistent with their language that I can see.
 
Unfortunately, Venn diagrams are not universally accepted as evidence in court cases. Courts tend to be more literal-minded when considering language. Again, I'm not taking Nissan's side or trying to shoot you down. I'm preparing you for what Nissan will claim.
 
Well, I am not going to court, I am going to work through the process laid out by Nissan.

Re the Venn diagram, that is one way to describe a rigorous analysis of the warranty language provided by Nissan. I do believe rigorous analysis of warranty language will be welcomed by everyone, especially if it includes helpful images. We are all well-meaning people in this. The Nissan EV technology in the car was relatively new in 2013, and is obviously still evolving today. My take is that this is a rare or very rare fault, that no one currently in the loop has had experience with it, and we are all patiently working towards a mutually agreeable outcome, and I am very grateful to lean on the expertise around here :D . Covid 19 has made things generally odd as well. I have been driving Nissan vehicles since my first three Datsun 510s and I trust the quality of the engineering--that is why I currently have two of them in my driveway.

I appreciate that my previous explanation of what the 2013 Leaf Warranty is saying could be more clear, so here is a simpler version working directly with quoted line verbatim from page 7 and page 8 of the 2013 Leaf Warranty. Quoted line and words are in italics.

Quote 1 from the LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE on page 8: If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. What this defines is two things: first, the Lithium-Ion battery is a single item, original to the vehicle, which is removed and replaced from/to the vehicle; second, Lithium-Ion battery components are more than one items that are components of the Lithium-Ion battery. Corollary, since the Lithium-Ion battery is a single item removed from the vehicle, and repairs are made to that prior to return to the vehicle, then Lithium-Ion battery components are contained by (are a sub set of) the Lithium-Ion battery, and the Lithium-Ion battery must be the whole unit including the components inside. The language does not actually specify that the components are inside the shell, but there is no other rational options for where those components could be. If anyone can convincingly parse this warranty language otherwise, love to hear. From my viewpoint, the warranty has clearly defined the single battery and the multiple components.

Quote 2 from the LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE on page 7: LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Above it was established that the Lithium-Ion battery must be the whole unit including the components inside. Again, if there is any real world way to re arrange the known elements of the battery and the known language of the warranty, please do so. So the LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE 8 year warranty applies to the battery.

What the warranty does is provide an internally and externally consistent definition for the battery and its components. It also provides an 8 year warranty for the battery. There is additional consistent supporting language and reasoning in these two warranty sections for those definitions (which I wont go into unless asked because I think I have used up all my MNL ink for awhile), and there are zero (that I can see) alternative explanations.
 
Mike,

I fully agree with your interpretation or description of the warranty and am watching your experience carefully. Another consideration if you are forced to take Nissan to arbitration: The Magnuson-Moss Act (1975 law) has some language that allows for owners or independent shops to make repairs without voiding warranties. If you cannot open the battery case without voiding the warranty and you need to replace a part inside that case, then how can an owner or independent shop replace that part which Nissan is considering to be not under warranty.
 
Gerry,

Thanks for that. And also thanks to this forum, it is a terrific resource.

GerryAZ said:
If you cannot open the battery case without voiding the warranty and you need to replace a part inside that case, then how can an owner or independent shop replace that part which Nissan is considering to be not under warranty.

Yes, one more consistency. Here is another, if there were some components warrantied for 8-years, and some not, then there would be a list of components they do warranty for 8-years, just like they have specified in complete detail for all the other warrantied items on the vehicle, and that list would be in the 2013 warranty booklet. It is not, or I am sure someone would have pointed it out to me by now. There are more consistencies, and zero inconsistencies that I can see.

Got vid this morning of the P33E6 behavior. Turn car on, EV warning light, turtle, and audio "motor power is being limited". Turn off, wait 8 seconds, turn on, still turtle etc. Turn off, wait 8 seconds, turn on, still turtle etc. Turn off, wait 10 seconds, turn on, dashboard warning lights and audio are gone. Turn off, wait 10 seconds, turn on, dashboard warning lights and audio are still gone. Will try to make a YouTube account when I find the time. Car is just sitting now, driven 131 miles since picking it up at the dealer with the P33E6 diagnosis on June 11, some local driving until the EV warning light re-appeared, and some diagnostic miles.
 
Frustrating that this thread was humming right along and then went silent with no known resolution. My 2015 Leaf SV was acting very similar to MikeINPA's Leaf. The dealership did a basic check of the battery and told me everything was ok (when I knew full well it was not). A week ago it started up in Turtle mode/check charging system coming right off of a full overnight charge on a trickle charger. I brought it to the dealership in that state (and left the car on to make sure that turtle was still showing) and that seemed to be the magic bullet that yielded an error code that lead to another test (I'm guessing CVLI but I don't know for sure).

Well the rep initially comes back to me with a $2000 repair quote to which I responded that it should be repair covered under the battery warranty. The claim was then submitted to Nissan corporate (who normally respond in 48 hours) and the result: The repair IS being covered under warranty AND they gave me a 5 day free car rental to boot! Woohoo!

Needless to say I am overjoyed with the outcome and I think it should be the same for anyone else experiencing the weak cell issue if the battery is still under warranty.
 
Finally got to replacing the module last weekend--turns out it was a defective module. When I lifted the heater plate, there was clear evidence of cell outgassing. There is zero damage to the heater plate above it. if you look closely between cells #43 and #44 you can see the clear sealant (gasket?) is mal-formed and cell #43 looks bulgy.



Thanks everyone for their patience--I am busy and this is a spare vehicle :)
 
MikeinPA said:
Thanks everyone for their patience--I am busy and this is a spare vehicle :)
Good pic. I saw no such damage to the (bad) module I replaced. Of course, you don't go this far without knowing something was wrong in the first place.
 
I was somewhat relieved to see the obvious manufacturing defect and out gassing. Before bolting everything together, I will take a very close look at all the other cells. I wonder if UV light would highlight minor outgassing at other cells...worth a try.

Stanton, wouldn't it be handy if there was a way to balance a pack with dropping it and tearing it down?
 
MikeinPA said:
Stanton, wouldn't it be handy if there was a way to balance a pack with dropping it and tearing it down?
I wish! I'm amazed that the BMS doesn't have the "uumph" (for lack of a better term) to balance everything out. I get when they are "weak", but if a module is in good working condition, it should be able to be brought in line with the rest of the pack. After many months, my new module has only closed the gap ~10mV (out of 80mV), so I'm beginning to think it will never happen. At least I (deliberately) charged it to a slightly higher voltage relative to the rest of the pack, so it's not causing any problems at the bottom end; I've just given up a few miles of overall range (which I can spare). The lesson here is: make sure you can live with whatever that new module(s) charge is when you insert it into the existing pack!
 
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