RustyShackleford
Well-known member
I'll be selling a similar rig when we sell our Leaf soon, if anyone else wants one.evtifosi said:
Using the Leaf for power in a Blackout: MY "Leaf to Home"
- Thread starter KillaWhat
- Start date
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watchdoc
Well-known member
l8nighter said:
Handy PowerX works great!
@Killawhat - amazing! thanks! I've read pretty much all 29 pages of this thread - apologies if you've already answered this. I know there's been a lot of debate re: connecting the inverter to the negative post of the 12V battery versus chassis ground, and I know you're recommending not to connect to the negative post of the 12V battery.
Looking at the owners manual for the prowatt 1000; it appears to have a ground chassis terminal just like mine (the powerdrive 1000). Also looking at the owners manual of the prowatt; it recommends connecting to the chassis ground as well as the battery terminals (e.g. all 3 terminals connected separately - just like mine).
Question (long winded question) @Killawhat (or anyone else who can answer on their behalf): Hard to tell from your pics but it looks like you've used a piece of wire to connect the ground terminal of the inverter to the negative terminal of the inverter & then from there - the negative terminal of the inverter to the ground chassis of the vehicle. Is this correct? If so, this didn't naturally occur to me, but I might try it on mine too.
Looking at the owners manual for the prowatt 1000; it appears to have a ground chassis terminal just like mine (the powerdrive 1000). Also looking at the owners manual of the prowatt; it recommends connecting to the chassis ground as well as the battery terminals (e.g. all 3 terminals connected separately - just like mine).
Question (long winded question) @Killawhat (or anyone else who can answer on their behalf): Hard to tell from your pics but it looks like you've used a piece of wire to connect the ground terminal of the inverter to the negative terminal of the inverter & then from there - the negative terminal of the inverter to the ground chassis of the vehicle. Is this correct? If so, this didn't naturally occur to me, but I might try it on mine too.
Thanks to everyone here on this forum in helping me with my research. I have a 2015 S and I needed a solution to recharge my EGO 56V batteries so that I can hot swap them on my 2,000/3,000W surge EGO Nexus Power Station which would power my fridges and other appliances during a power outage. Unfortunately the EGO Nexus cannot be charged at the same time its being used but I can just hot swap the batteries one at a time and charge them from the Leaf.
Here is the solution I came up with and the documentation I created and steps for my family. Hopefully this helps others and let me know if I made any errors or you have any questions. I am not an expert so follow these instructions at your own risk. Thank You!
What I purchased:
I purchased the Ampeak 1200W Pure Sine Wave Inverter from Amazon on December 19, 2022 for $161.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09SZCWM8R/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 and also the Spartan Power 2 foot 4 AWG Alligator Clamp Battery Cables for $27.99 https://invertersrus.com/product/spgator4awg2ft56/
Steps to connect the inverter to the Leaf:
-Put the parking brake on.
-Start the Leaf like you are going to drive it.
-Turn off the AC or Heater.
-Turn on the ODB Adapter (If you have one).
-Open Leafspy on your Android phone. (To monitor the Leafs battery and inverter)
-Raise the hood.
-Put something under the inverter like a plastic lid or board.
-Make sure the inverter power switch is off.
-Connect one set of cables to the inverter depending on the need:
-Connect battery chargers to AC outlets. (Don't connect them before the power switch is on. If the chargers don't light up, turn the inverter off and on again.)
-When finished, turn off the inverter and disconnect in reverse order.
My Testing on 1/7/2023:
Testing with alligator clamps (50A / 600W max):
-1st 210W EGO charger uses 221W on inverter @ 17.4A on clamp, Leafspy 16A and Leaf was at 91% left.
-Connected 2nd 210W EGO charger 410W on inverter @ 35A on clamp, Leafspy 34A. Fans do not run on inverter.
-Ran the test for over 20 minutes with 5Ah EGO batteries with no issues and Leaf was at 87% left.
Testing with ring clamps (68A / 816W max):
-700W EGO charger uses 696W on inverter @ 64A on clamp, Leafspy 63A. Fans on the inverter do turn on.
-I ran the test for 15 minutes with 5Ah and 10Ah EGO batteries without any issues and Leaf was at 84% left.
Testing Video Link:
https://youtu.be/lhXBoV7Ks3I
Reference Articles:
Best place to tap 12v system for 1500 watt AC inverter use? “Therefore it is actually wise to connect directly to battery terminal. Plus battery will buffer peaks and lessen the stress for DC-DC inverter.” https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=31914&start=10
From Alligator Clips to Eyelet Cable for 1200w Inverter
“Those alligator clamps aren't the best for sustained high current draws. If you're drawing 50A or less, you would probably be ok. If you're pulling 100A sustained for more than a few minutes, those clamps are going to get very hot where they connect to the battery post.” and “1200 watt inverter, 1200/12*1.2=120 amps” https://diysolarforum.com/threads/alligator-clips-to-eyelet-cable-for-1200w-inverter.11266/
Calculate Wire Size: DC Wire Gauge Calculator https://learnmetrics.com/calculate-wire-size-dc-awg-wire-gauge-calculator/
Ampacity rule. Every AWG gauge wire has its own ampacity; a metric that tells you how many amps that wire can handle. Example: 4 AWG copper wire has 85A ampacity at a median 75°C temperature. That means a 4 AWG wire can handle 85 amps of current.
NEC 80% rule. National Electrical Code (NEC) states that ‘any wire can be loaded to only 80% of its ampacity rating (for continuous loads)’. Example: 4 AWG wire can handle 85A. However, you should only load it to 80% of that; that’s 68 amps maximum. This is a safety precaution, preventing your wires from potentially catching fire.
Current (Amps) = Power (Watts) / Voltage (Volt) Amps to Watts Calculator https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Amp_to_Watt_Calculator.html
Current = 1,104W / 12V = 92 Amps
4 AWG wire should stay below 68 Amps which is 816 Watts. (85 A x 80% = 68 A)
2 AWG wire should stay below 92 Amps which is 1104 Watts. (115 A x 80% = 92 A)
The Leaf 12V system is limited to 2,000 watts. A 1500 watt inverter has conversion losses, so it might take 1650 watts to create 1500 watts of 120V AC power for example. turned off in the Leaf beforehand. The Leaf needs at least 200 watts of power just to be on and run the computer, provided you have everything else.
My Testing on 12/29/2022:
I had the 700W EGO charger connected with alligator clamps pulling 672W on the Inverter, 53.23A on Leaf Spy, 53A on DC Clamp Meter and it said Short Circuit after 5 minutes. I later discovered that due to the surface area of alligator clips they should stay under 50 Amps which is why the inverter said short circuit. When using the alligator clamps I should only use the smaller 210 W EGO chargers which is why it never had any issues when I performed that test.
-659W is using 53 Amps but the Leaf is using 1,311 + 200 = 1,511 / 2,000 max according to Leafspy.
-1,311 - 659 = 652 W loss in conversion
-If 1104 would use 92 Amps but the Leaf would use probably 2,000 + 200 = 2,200 / 2,000 max = Bad!
-Note to self don't buy 2 AWG cables since the Leafs inverter probably could not handle the Amps anyways.
Here is the solution I came up with and the documentation I created and steps for my family. Hopefully this helps others and let me know if I made any errors or you have any questions. I am not an expert so follow these instructions at your own risk. Thank You!
What I purchased:
I purchased the Ampeak 1200W Pure Sine Wave Inverter from Amazon on December 19, 2022 for $161.99 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09SZCWM8R/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 and also the Spartan Power 2 foot 4 AWG Alligator Clamp Battery Cables for $27.99 https://invertersrus.com/product/spgator4awg2ft56/
Steps to connect the inverter to the Leaf:
-Put the parking brake on.
-Start the Leaf like you are going to drive it.
-Turn off the AC or Heater.
-Turn on the ODB Adapter (If you have one).
-Open Leafspy on your Android phone. (To monitor the Leafs battery and inverter)
-Raise the hood.
-Put something under the inverter like a plastic lid or board.
-Make sure the inverter power switch is off.
-Connect one set of cables to the inverter depending on the need:
- Alligator Clamps (50A / 600W max) for 2 x 210W EGO Chargers
- Ring Clamps (68A / 816W max) for 1 x 700W EGO Charger
- Alligator Clamps:
- -Connect the red positive alligator clamp to the red positive on battery.
-Connect black negative alligator clamp to the black negative on battery.
- Ring Clamps:
- -Put negative ring clamp into a glove so it doesn’t touch anything.
-Don’t let the wrench touch the battery bracket when removing screws. Sparks!!!
-Don’t lose the nuts or over tighten.
-Remove the red positive screw on the battery and connect the ring clamp.
-Remove the black negative screw on the battery and connect the ring clamp.
-Connect battery chargers to AC outlets. (Don't connect them before the power switch is on. If the chargers don't light up, turn the inverter off and on again.)
-When finished, turn off the inverter and disconnect in reverse order.
My Testing on 1/7/2023:
Testing with alligator clamps (50A / 600W max):
-1st 210W EGO charger uses 221W on inverter @ 17.4A on clamp, Leafspy 16A and Leaf was at 91% left.
-Connected 2nd 210W EGO charger 410W on inverter @ 35A on clamp, Leafspy 34A. Fans do not run on inverter.
-Ran the test for over 20 minutes with 5Ah EGO batteries with no issues and Leaf was at 87% left.
Testing with ring clamps (68A / 816W max):
-700W EGO charger uses 696W on inverter @ 64A on clamp, Leafspy 63A. Fans on the inverter do turn on.
-I ran the test for 15 minutes with 5Ah and 10Ah EGO batteries without any issues and Leaf was at 84% left.
Testing Video Link:
https://youtu.be/lhXBoV7Ks3I
Reference Articles:
Best place to tap 12v system for 1500 watt AC inverter use? “Therefore it is actually wise to connect directly to battery terminal. Plus battery will buffer peaks and lessen the stress for DC-DC inverter.” https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=31914&start=10
From Alligator Clips to Eyelet Cable for 1200w Inverter
“Those alligator clamps aren't the best for sustained high current draws. If you're drawing 50A or less, you would probably be ok. If you're pulling 100A sustained for more than a few minutes, those clamps are going to get very hot where they connect to the battery post.” and “1200 watt inverter, 1200/12*1.2=120 amps” https://diysolarforum.com/threads/alligator-clips-to-eyelet-cable-for-1200w-inverter.11266/
Calculate Wire Size: DC Wire Gauge Calculator https://learnmetrics.com/calculate-wire-size-dc-awg-wire-gauge-calculator/
Ampacity rule. Every AWG gauge wire has its own ampacity; a metric that tells you how many amps that wire can handle. Example: 4 AWG copper wire has 85A ampacity at a median 75°C temperature. That means a 4 AWG wire can handle 85 amps of current.
NEC 80% rule. National Electrical Code (NEC) states that ‘any wire can be loaded to only 80% of its ampacity rating (for continuous loads)’. Example: 4 AWG wire can handle 85A. However, you should only load it to 80% of that; that’s 68 amps maximum. This is a safety precaution, preventing your wires from potentially catching fire.
Current (Amps) = Power (Watts) / Voltage (Volt) Amps to Watts Calculator https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Amp_to_Watt_Calculator.html
Current = 1,104W / 12V = 92 Amps
4 AWG wire should stay below 68 Amps which is 816 Watts. (85 A x 80% = 68 A)
2 AWG wire should stay below 92 Amps which is 1104 Watts. (115 A x 80% = 92 A)
The Leaf 12V system is limited to 2,000 watts. A 1500 watt inverter has conversion losses, so it might take 1650 watts to create 1500 watts of 120V AC power for example. turned off in the Leaf beforehand. The Leaf needs at least 200 watts of power just to be on and run the computer, provided you have everything else.
My Testing on 12/29/2022:
I had the 700W EGO charger connected with alligator clamps pulling 672W on the Inverter, 53.23A on Leaf Spy, 53A on DC Clamp Meter and it said Short Circuit after 5 minutes. I later discovered that due to the surface area of alligator clips they should stay under 50 Amps which is why the inverter said short circuit. When using the alligator clamps I should only use the smaller 210 W EGO chargers which is why it never had any issues when I performed that test.
-659W is using 53 Amps but the Leaf is using 1,311 + 200 = 1,511 / 2,000 max according to Leafspy.
-1,311 - 659 = 652 W loss in conversion
-If 1104 would use 92 Amps but the Leaf would use probably 2,000 + 200 = 2,200 / 2,000 max = Bad!
-Note to self don't buy 2 AWG cables since the Leafs inverter probably could not handle the Amps anyways.
You do realize while that Arnis told you, essentially, to use the battery terminal, he also told knightmb that the frame is a sound place to connect the ground? Knightmb said that he also uses the Negative terminal on the battery. His concern was that a contact point for Ground on the frame might not be electrically and mechanically sound enough, and Arnis disagreed. So while I'm not going to tell you that you can't use the Negative terminal on the battery, you should be aware that you are basically - along with knightmb - testing the theory that the battery Negative terminal is better. Knightmb does like to test things 
but I think I'd go the more traditional route for a power outage setup. My own suggestion, as you have likely read, is to use a large battery in the garage as a "buffer" between the car's 12 volt system and the inverter.
but I think I'd go the more traditional route for a power outage setup. My own suggestion, as you have likely read, is to use a large battery in the garage as a "buffer" between the car's 12 volt system and the inverter.
knightmb
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:You do realize while that Arnis told you, essentially, to use the battery terminal, he also told knightmb that the frame is a sound place to connect the ground? Knightmb said that he also uses the Negative terminal on the battery. His concern was that a contact point for Ground on the frame might not be electrically and mechanically sound enough, and Arnis disagreed. So while I'm not going to tell you that you can't use the Negative terminal on the battery, you should be aware that you are basically - along with knightmb - testing the theory that the battery Negative terminal is better. Knightmb does like to test things
We can all disagree in the spirit of discussion, but just imagine this. Take the area (the sheet metal) where that ground screw is connected to the Leaf body. Now imagine that you cut out a circle around that screw and rolled it up into a cylinder. That's basically the connection you have to carry these immense amount of amps. Now look at my "1000 watts only" setup in the picture below. I'm using 2 AWG wire with a 175A quick connect. I'm running a little over 1,000 watts out the inverter and it's using 1.3kW to produce that 1,000 watts. That's the bare minimum needed to avoid this thing melting wires at that load level over a long period of time.
The DC-to-DC connection cable goes directly to the battery terminals and then spiders out to the rest of the Leaf for power. The Negative cable is just "connected" to the Frame along the way via the sheet metal screw. It makes no sense to make the power go the long way through your Frame to your Inverter instead of directly to it. Mainly for efficiency reasons. Otherwise, you are using your Frame as a low power heater along the way. Finally, the Frame connection is great for the lights and other devices that have a small power draw, but using an Inverter is way beyond the design specs of the Leaf and how much power you want to push through the sheet metal. If not for safety reasons, I would never use the Frame to channel this much power and I'm only using the 1,000 watt setup. Someone using a 1,500 watt inverter is nearly maxing out the power from the DC-to-DC connection. Just because "it works" is no excuse to ignore safety. :roll:
We don't disagree here. I would only use the PDM stack as a grounding point, not the body sheet metal. A lot more thick metal there.
knightmb
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
Yeah, I realize after reading that, I didn't do context better as I was debating what the other user said, not you directly. My apologies.
No problem. Me, I have to be careful about writing mere minutes after waking up.
RustyShackleford
Well-known member
We're getting a Tesla, and I'd like to be able to do the same thing with it that me and others here have done with our Leaves. I suppose there's no reason it couldn't work more or less the same, but I want to look into it.
Is anyone aware of a similar discussion on the interwebs for Teslas ?
Is anyone aware of a similar discussion on the interwebs for Teslas ?
coulomb
Well-known member
Just be aware that some Teslas have 16V auxiliary batteries. That's good for reducing current draw, but the inverter has to be designed to work with the higher voltage. I don't know if many or even any inverters can cope with it.RustyShackleford said:
BrockWI
Well-known member
Hmmm, I have never heard of a 16v battery in a Tesla, I have worked on the Y, 3, & S and all have had standard flooded lead acid 12v aux batteries. I haven't seen one, but have heard they are switching over to Li-Ion 12v in newer vehicles.
I know one of the catch's with at least the model 3 is the lead form the DC-DC converter (under the rear side passenger seat) has a smaller wire, like #10 leading up to the battery under the hood area. So if you want to power a larger inverter or loads you have to tap off right at the DC-DC converter in the back seat. There is a huge thread about it here.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/master-thread-powering-house-or-other-things-with-model-3.140567/
I know one of the catch's with at least the model 3 is the lead form the DC-DC converter (under the rear side passenger seat) has a smaller wire, like #10 leading up to the battery under the hood area. So if you want to power a larger inverter or loads you have to tap off right at the DC-DC converter in the back seat. There is a huge thread about it here.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/master-thread-powering-house-or-other-things-with-model-3.140567/
RustyShackleford
Well-known member
Exactly what I was looking for, thnaks.BrockWI said:
RustyShackleford
Well-known member
I do, but I haven't worked out to do it with the Tesla yet, so I'm going to hang onto it for now. Sorry.koovoodoo said:
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