Charging Performance, Not EV Acceleration Should Be the Focus of OEMs

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Completely agree- I have one of the slower EVs around and have tried its maximum acceleration maybe once or twice for S and G but have NEVER needed it to be safe in traffic in over 50K miles. Even ECO mode gets the cars moving plenty fast. And in ice or snow, using too much power simply triggers the car's anti-spin device so why even bother....
 
dmacarthur said:
Completely agree- I have one of the slower EVs around and have tried its maximum acceleration maybe once or twice for S and G but have NEVER needed it to be safe in traffic in over 50K miles. Even ECO mode gets the cars moving plenty fast. And in ice or snow, using too much power simply triggers the car's anti-spin device so why even bother....

I'm the same. I don't care about winning drag races, and while I do care about being able to safely merge into fast moving traffic or pass on two lane roads, every BEV I've driven bar the '90s-era Think city car (which really rode and drove like the proverbial glorified golf cart) has had good to excellent merging/passing ability, especially in the mountains where that's most important for me, as unlike a naturally-aspirated ICE the battery doesn't care how high the altitude is. But fast, seamless, ultra-reliable charging akin to my 100% success rate buying gas over 40+ years of driving remains a distant target.

Also see:https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=627628#p627628

for another example of what we don't need at this point.
 
I agree the H.P. and 0-60 times are starting to get ridiculous, for cars you can just plop down average money and drive out the door, dangerous IMO. Sure in the past one could build a car with higher HP or I guess pay someone to build it for you, or if you had a quarter million dollars lying around I suppose you could track down a Lambo or Ferrari but that was for very few people. Such cars are getting cheaper and cheaper new, what's going to happen when some pimply-faced teenager is able to purchase something like this secondhand for their first car, god help the person that gets in their way :eek:
When I first read about our recent purchase, a Rav4 Prime PHEV, its selling point to me was it's ~40-mile EV range but the article was more concerned with its 302 HP and touted it was the fastest(or maybe second?) current production Toyota. Great, now we'd have to wait even longer because people did not just want its nice EV range but probably more because it could scream 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, which I guess sounds slow compared to other full EVs but it's way faster than we need or will probably ever try. As long as I can safely merge on the freeway, which I could with my 1.0L 67HP 3-cyl Geo Metro(if I turned off he A/C :lol: ) I'm happy.
 
I think modular and easily repairable battery packs should be a big focus. I have a weak cell and it needs to be repaired, but it isn't an easy task....I feel there is much improvement that can be made and should be made.

Also, when there is a bad or weak cell the system should be able to bypass that cell instead of causing an early shutdown of the pack because of one cells problem.

I like the Tesla, but from what I see with the battery packs they are not meant to be serviced. I don't know how they handle a bad cell or two...but Nissan missed the boat on that problem IMHO.
 
Imagine what it will be like when everyone drives electric.

I agree with Loren McDonald and all of you. Charging performance should be the focus of OEMs. Many years ago I serviced Fax machines. The first ones were big, heavy and clumsy to operate. It took as much as six minutes to transmit one page. The worst part was that sending and receiving machines had to be from the same manufacturer. As you can imagine those early Fax machines were rare. It took some pressure from large organizations to get the Fax manufacturers to come up with a universal transmission standard. When they did the market for Fax machines exploded. Something similar has to happen in the EV market. It looks like we are headed that way with the CCS connecting system although they should have chosen the Tesla system.

Personally, I think they need to standardize the payment procedure. When I pull into any gas station there is no question about how I'm going to pay; my credit card works everywhere regardless of gas brands. With EVs only Tesla the Tesla owner knows how he's going to pay; for the rest, confusion.
 
Toby said:
Personally, I think they need to standardize the payment procedure. When I pull into any gas station there is no question about how I'm going to pay; my credit card works everywhere regardless of gas brands. With EVs only Tesla the Tesla owner knows how he's going to pay; for the rest, confusion.
Be careful for what you wish for. I would hate for the standardized payment system to be only Apply Pay or some other "app" only type of payment system. As it is now, you can use your credit/debit card on any charging network already, just annoying that you need the app for all those charging networks. :roll:
 
knightmb said:
Toby said:
Personally, I think they need to standardize the payment procedure. When I pull into any gas station there is no question about how I'm going to pay; my credit card works everywhere regardless of gas brands. With EVs only Tesla the Tesla owner knows how he's going to pay; for the rest, confusion.
Be careful for what you wish for. I would hate for the standardized payment system to be only Apply Pay or some other "app" only type of payment system. As it is now, you can use your credit/debit card on any charging network already, just annoying that you need the app for all those charging networks. :roll:


I think you mean "You can TRY to use your credit/debit card on any charging network, or a network card, or an app, or tap your phone, or just plug the car in and pray to Zeus to start a charge. Plug and Charge should be one standard method, but reliable credit/debit cards should be a universal option. Or the most reliable method of all, at least I've been using it with complete success since I started driving: Walk inside, hand the clerk cash, tell them which dispenser to apply it to, and walk out. It's up to them to activate it. Hasn't failed me yet.

Granted, I came of age long before smart phones so my payment practices are incredibly out-of-date, but then I've never had to stand at a gas pump on a 800 number call with CS located who knows where, hoping that they can turn the %^$&*!! pump on remotely after all other methods failed. I can't say the same for my experience using public for-pay charging.
 
jjeff said:
As long as I can safely merge on the freeway, which I could with my 1.0L 67HP 3-cyl Geo Metro(if I turned off he A/C :lol: ) I'm happy.

[In thick Yorkshire accent] 67HP in a Metro? You were lucky. WE had it tough. 65HP & 88 ft.-lb. torque in my dad's 3,000 lb. 1976 Peugeot 504 Diesel. 0-60 in 28.1 [or maybe it was 28.6, forget] seconds. And you try and tell the young people of today that and they won't believe you.*




*As not everyone is a Python devotee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
 
GRA said:
jjeff said:
As long as I can safely merge on the freeway, which I could with my 1.0L 67HP 3-cyl Geo Metro(if I turned off he A/C :lol: ) I'm happy.

[In thick Yorkshire accent] 67HP in a Metro? You were lucky. WE had it tough. 65HP & 88 ft.-lb. torque in my dad's 3,000 lb. 1975 Peugeot 504 Diesel. 0-60 in 28.1 [or maybe it was 28.6, forget] seconds. And you try and tell the young people of today that and they won't believe you.*




*As not everyone is a Python devotee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
:lol: funny skit, never seen that but I never really watched MP although my brother has probably seen every one multiple times :D

Yes but the Metro weighed in at less than 1800lbs so it really wasn't too bad, that and it was a stick, automatics were always a dog, I can only imagine how the rentals with an auto and A/C loaded with 4 people and luggage would get onto the freeway :shock:
I miss Peugeots, they made some nice cars, my mother had a beautiful 505 STI that was about the most comfortable car I ever sat in. She got it after a bad car accident which made sitting in any car painful, not to mention bumps. We went to an early 80s car show and she sat in almost every car they had and when she got in the Peugeot she felt in heaven, we test-drove one and she was sold, it even had heated seats, something that was pretty rare back then.. Unfortunately Peugeot pulled out of the US market not long after and that was her last Peugeot. A few years later I actually found a wrecked similar car in a junkyard and bought both front bucket seats off it, can't remember but I'm guessing for <$100 each and installed them in my at the time '65 Dodge Dodge Dart. I loved those seats and sat in them for many years until I finally had to junk the car due to the frame(actually uni-body) rusting through. I'm sure it was the only Dart with heated leather seats, for sure one with Peugeot seats :D
 
GRA said:
a 800 number call with CS located who knows where, hoping that they can turn the %^$&*!! pump on remotely after all other methods failed. I can't say the same for my experience using public for-pay charging.

Oddly, I've never had this experience. Oh, I've called Customer Service a couple of times. Once for payment help, as the included aka "free" kWh wasn't working. Solution was to uninstall EA app, uninstall Audi app, reinstall Audi app, reinstall EA app. If the EA app was installed first, the Audi app didn't work for the "free" kWh. Sigh. And once because it was the only way to turn the current on. Charge was free, unless your car stopped and you didn't unplug in 10 minutes, go figure.

I've found the network membership cards to almost always work reliably. EA's app likewise, failed once, credit card worked fine.

Every car has a few quirks. By renting, you can complain about all the different issues on different cars.

Some charging stations have quirks. One you needed to swipe your card first, then plug in. Another you needed to plug in first, then enter your card.

And unlike horses, oats don't work for gas cars.
 
knightmb said:
Be careful for what you wish for. I would hate for the standardized payment system to be only Apply Pay or some other "app" only type of payment system. As it is now, you can use your credit/debit card on any charging network already, just annoying that you need the app for all those charging networks. :roll:

It's not just about payment. The point is that, just like in the gas stations, my credit card should activate the machine.

I don't have a cell phone. Those things irritate me no end. I am gobsmacked that huge corporations have managed to persuade so many people to carry their miniature computer around with them as if it were a narcotic. It looks like a brain implant to me. If an EV needs to have a cell phone for on the road charging then it should be built into the car.
 
GRA said:
I think you mean "You can TRY to use your credit/debit card on any charging network, or a network card, or an app, or tap your phone, or just plug the car in and pray to Zeus to start a charge. Plug and Charge should be one standard method, but reliable credit/debit cards should be a universal option. Or the most reliable method of all, at least I've been using it with complete success since I started driving: Walk inside, hand the clerk cash, tell them which dispenser to apply it to, and walk out. It's up to them to activate it. Hasn't failed me yet.

Granted, I came of age long before smart phones so my payment practices are incredibly out-of-date, but then I've never had to stand at a gas pump on a 800 number call with CS located who knows where, hoping that they can turn the %^$&*!! pump on remotely after all other methods failed. I can't say the same for my experience using public for-pay charging.

Oh I agree, been there, done that, got the t-shirt of calling customer support and waiting for them to do a remote activation. This was terrible back in the early 2010's because you would think someone would test this or at least know if the charge station was not communicating with the network and send someone out to fix it. The charging stations that *do* accept credit/debit cards, the reader is not covered from rain or weather so it's full of debris from bird poop and whatever else has fallen into it over the past year. :lol:
 
Toby said:
It's not just about payment. The point is that, just like in the gas stations, my credit card should activate the machine.

I don't have a cell phone. Those things irritate me no end. I am gobsmacked that huge corporations have managed to persuade so many people to carry their miniature computer around with them as if it were a narcotic. It looks like a brain implant to me. If an EV needs to have a cell phone for on the road charging then it should be built into the car.

Ah, that is where the difference is. All of those charging networks are owned by single company(s). Your local gas station is a franchise, which means it gets more personal attention from an actual person that cares *usually*. :lol: At least if they want to make money, the owner will do something about it.

If charging stations could follow that model, I think they would get a lot more attention to maintenance and keeping them clean. If your income came from a charging station having all the plugs working and payment system working, I can bet the networks across the nation would be a lot better. :D
 
jjeff said:
<Snip>

:lol: funny skit, never seen that but I never really watched MP although my brother has probably seen every one multiple times :D

I can do most of them in my sleep but it's best not to get me started, or you'll be sitting through The Cheese Shop (probably my personal favorite), The Argument Clinic, The Dead Parrot, The Undertaker and The Spanish Inquisition, just for starters:D

jjeff said:
Yes but the Metro weighed in at less than 1800lbs so it really wasn't too bad, that and it was a stick, automatics were always a dog, I can only imagine how the rentals with an auto and A/C loaded with 4 people and luggage would get onto the freeway :shock:

The 504D had a 4 speed as well, as my dad wouldn't have it any other way: "The day I can't shift for myself is the day I give up driving". And he did so, right up until age 88 when they pulled his license owing to the onset of mild dementia. I don't remember if they even offered the '76 504D with an automatic, but I don't know if they could have. It was the only car I've ever driven that could be out-accelerated from a stop sign or signal by a loaded semi (I'm not kidding; it happened to me several times), and freeway merges into congested but fast-moving traffic had to be very carefully planned and executed, and once you committed, backing off the throttle wasn't an option; it could be a white knuckle affair if your timing was slightly off.

After dealing with that, merging in every other car I've ever driven was a piece of cake - my '88 Subaru had a 0-60 time in the mid-13 second range, and it was never the slightest problem. For the '77 or maybe it was '78 model year Peugeot upgraded the 504D's engine from a 2.1 to a 2.3L diesel, boosting the HP to 71 IIRR (don't know the torque). I never drove that version of the 504D, but when Peugeot introduced the slightly bigger and heavier 505D a year or so after that with the same engine and a 5-speed, the difference in performance belied the fact that it was only an extra 6 HP. My dad decided to test drive one and we both got some time behind the wheel. We took it up a hill that his 504D struggled to maintain 50 on in 3rd (it couldn't maintain speed on it in 4th), and the brand-new, unbroken in 505D sailed up it at 60 or more in its overdrive 5th like it was cruising on flat ground.


jjeff said:
I miss Peugeots, they made some nice cars, my mother had a beautiful 505 STI that was about the most comfortable car I ever sat in. She got it after a bad car accident which made sitting in any car painful, not to mention bumps. We went to an early 80s car show and she sat in almost every car they had and when she got in the Peugeot she felt in heaven, we test-drove one and she was sold, it even had heated seats, something that was pretty rare back then.. Unfortunately Peugeot pulled out of the US market not long after and that was her last Peugeot. A few years later I actually found a wrecked similar car in a junkyard and bought both front bucket seats off it, can't remember but I'm guessing for <$100 each and installed them in my at the time '65 Dodge Dodge Dart. I loved those seats and sat in them for many years until I finally had to junk the car due to the frame(actually uni-body) rusting through. I'm sure it was the only Dart with heated leather seats, for sure one with Peugeot seats :D


It wasn't just the seats (my dad preferred and had cloth, and they were great too), those cars had the best ride of any car I've ever been in. Like many French cars, even the bottom of the market Renault 5 aka 'Le Car', the shocks (or was it struts? Forget now) had a very soft compression stroke but a firm rebound, and they soaked up bumps and truck heaves like nothing else I've ever been in. To get to my dad's place there was a single set of railroad tracks you drove over a couple of blocks away. There were a fair number of Caddies in the neighborhood, mostly Coupe deVilles, and with their very soft suspensions in both compression and rebound they used to creep across those tracks at 3-5 miles an hour, with the car pitching up and down at each end like a small boat in a short sea. It was wide enough to pass them, and I used to cruise by at 25-30 mph, with the only notice that I was passing over tracks being more heard than felt, and low key at that - (quietly) C'est le bump . encore . encore . encore une fois . Finis. :lol:

The downside of that is those cars all lacked anti-roll bars, so the soft compression stroke meant that, in the expression commonly used in the car mags I used to read, they "cornered on their door handles".
 
IIRC another factor that made Peugeots so comfy to drive was the long-throw struts, longer than most cars, which meant that they simply had more time and length to absorb..... remember the 403 with the shift lever poking out of the dashboard?
 
dmacarthur said:
IIRC another factor that made Peugeots so comfy to drive was the long-throw struts, longer than most cars, which meant that they simply had more time and length to absorb..... remember the 403 with the shift lever poking out of the dashboard?


I think the 403 was before my time, or maybe there were so few of them I just never noticed one - the earliest ones I remember were the 404s.
 
knightmb said:
Toby said:
It's not just about payment. The point is that, just like in the gas stations, my credit card should activate the machine.

I don't have a cell phone. Those things irritate me no end. I am gobsmacked that huge corporations have managed to persuade so many people to carry their miniature computer around with them as if it were a narcotic. It looks like a brain implant to me. If an EV needs to have a cell phone for on the road charging then it should be built into the car.

Ah, that is where the difference is. All of those charging networks are owned by single company(s). Your local gas station is a franchise, which means it gets more personal attention from an actual person that cares *usually*. :lol: At least if they want to make money, the owner will do something about it.

If charging stations could follow that model, I think they would get a lot more attention to maintenance and keeping them clean. If your income came from a charging station having all the plugs working and payment system working, I can bet the networks across the nation would be a lot better. :D


IIRR ChargePoint follows the method you describe: the site owner owns the DCFC and CP just handles the billing, but in a test here in the Bay Area they ranked last among EA, EVgo and them as far as reliability, so that's not necessarily the answer, although you'd think once the usage rates go up the economic incentive of charging would outweigh the cost and hassle of maintenance, as it does for gas stations.

  • Table 3. Functional State of EVSEs by the Top 3 EV Service Providers
    ChargePoint Electrify America EVgo
    N % N % N %
    Functioning
    Charged for 2-minutes 21 47.7% 228 60.2% 120 55.6%
    Occupied by EV and charging 6 13.6% 52 13.7% 37 17.1%
    Total 27 61.4% 280 73.9% 157 72.7%
    Not Functioning
    Connector broken 0 0.0% 2 0.5% 3 1.4%
    Blank or non-responsive screen 4 9.1% 13 3.4% 5 2.3%
    Error message on screen 4 9.1% 17 4.5% 3 1.4%
    Connection error 0 0.0% 0 0.0% 6 2.8%
    Payment system failure 3 6.8% 25 6.6% 16 7.4%
    Charge initiation failure 5 11.4% 15 4.0% 22 10.2%
    Total 16 36.4% 72 19.0% 55 25.5%
    Station Design Failure
    Cable would not reach 1 2.3% 27 7.1% 4 1.9%
    TOTAL 44 100% 379 100% 216 100%

Link to survey: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4077554
 
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