Replacing 12V Battery with LiFePO4 (Video)

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LeftieBiker said:
Why LiFePo4 as opposed to a good AGM for about half the cost, with no BMS to fail and kill the battery? Where (what region) do you live?

Colorado. Why AGM for Leaf? Don't need the cranking amps, still heavy, more expensive and only twice the life of lead acid, to name a few reasons.
 
I put an AGM in my Leaf when my 2017 OEM battery died. It was about $200 IIRC and I expect it to last as long as the rest of the car. It is also an easily available, simple, time-proven, robust design and seems to work well with the Leaf's charging algorithm. It is certainly heavier than a Li battery but I don't think the extra 10-20 lbs is significant .
 
Another part of the LiFePO4 problem is which ones will last and which ones are junk. I got lucky as the company I bought mine from made a good LiFePO4 battery that has lasted nearly a decade.

But even I would be a little weary of buying another LiFePO4 because the company I bought mine from years ago went out of business. (Stark Power) :lol:

I actually bought 2 of them all those years ago and the other is in my wife's Leaf now, so I don't really have a backup. :lol:
 
gibacca said:
LeftieBiker said:
Why LiFePo4 as opposed to a good AGM for about half the cost, with no BMS to fail and kill the battery? Where (what region) do you live?

Colorado. Why AGM for Leaf? Don't need the cranking amps, still heavy, more expensive and only twice the life of lead acid, to name a few reasons.

AGM batteries were first developed for fighter planes, and the real ones (not the clones with some fiberglass tossed into the electrolyte) are resistant both to physical shock and to irreversible sulfation. That last makes them better for the Leaf system, which tends to 'underfeed' the 12 volt battery, keeping it well below the 100% charge that lead-acid batteries crave for longevity. They also seem to better fit, as noted above, the Leaf's strange charging patterns. They will accept more charge during the brief periods that the Leaf offers it, and will survive better with the lower states of charge (SOC) that Leaf batteries usually have to endure.
 
gibacca said:
LeftieBiker said:
Why LiFePo4 as opposed to a good AGM for about half the cost, with no BMS to fail and kill the battery? Where (what region) do you live?

Colorado. Why AGM for Leaf? Don't need the cranking amps, still heavy, more expensive and only twice the life of lead acid, to name a few reasons.

I totally agree! What's with this continued obsessiveness about replacing the Leaf's battery? It's a waste of money,
my OEM 2013 Leaf battery lasted over 7 years. It's replacement was $110. Most data reported about the need for
a Leaf battery replacement are just anecdotal! Few if any longitudinal data have been reported. Some complain
about the Leaf's low charging voltage, and then recommend an AGM which requires a higher charging voltage than
a typical flooded lead acid battery.
 
SageBrush said:
fotajoye said:
... swap out the Lead battery for a good quality LiFePO4 battery, provided the mandatory BMS can guard against the environment of useage, i.e., it must not allow charging below freezing and must limit operations that can cause damage to the cells.
Price aside, this BMS requirement is the reason I have not swapped. And even if the 12v has its own reliable BMS, I'm left with the problem of cold spells in the winter when the 12v cannot charge.

@stanton, how did your LFP handle the cold week in Texas ?
Don't know how I missed this question, because I usually read these 12v threads.
I had no trouble with my 12v LiFePO4 battery during the "great freeze" last year in Texas...but I'm sure that won't stop the naysayers from claiming "you can't use these things in cold environments".
You have to remember a couple of things:
  • #1) it isn't always as cold (under the hood of a car) as you think, and (more importantly)
  • #2) you get what you pay for (I didn't buy a crappy Chinese-made battery).
 
Stanton said:
You have to remember a couple of things:
  • #1) it isn't always as cold (under the hood of a car) as you think, and (more importantly)
  • #2) you get what you pay for (I didn't buy a crappy Chinese-made battery).
Maybe in TX but in a climate like mine, my underhood temp can regularly get under 0F or bitter sub-zero temps for days at a time, even if parked in a (nonheated) garage but outside for 8+hrs at work, 0 battery bars on the traction battery for weeks at a time.
I agree with you though that there is a world of difference between a decent name-brand Li battery and some cheap Chinese-made crap. I know that from 18v Li batteries for my Mikita cordless tools. Genuine OEM batteries last much longer for use and longevity compared to the few Chinese knock-offs I've purchased and never will again off Amazon. An OEM battery will last for years and gradually lose capacity, the knock-offs while much cheaper tend to not have as much capacity new and last and eventually fail much quicker. I guess I went through this with batteries for a couple of laptops but the difference between genuine HP batteries and Amazon knock-offs was so much I just put up with the shortcomings of the knock-offs.
And I'm not knocking all Chinese-made batteries, I believe the OEM Mikita batteries are also made in China, just to different standards and a higher end price-point, as you said you basically get what you pay for.
 
lorenfb said:
gibacca said:
LeftieBiker said:
Why LiFePo4 as opposed to a good AGM for about half the cost, with no BMS to fail and kill the battery? Where (what region) do you live?

Colorado. Why AGM for Leaf? Don't need the cranking amps, still heavy, more expensive and only twice the life of lead acid, to name a few reasons.

I totally agree! What's with this continued obsessiveness about replacing the Leaf's battery? It's a waste of money,
my OEM 2013 Leaf battery lasted over 7 years. It's replacement was $110. Most data reported about the need for
a Leaf battery replacement are just anecdotal! Few if any longitudinal data have been reported. Some complain
about the Leaf's low charging voltage, and then recommend an AGM which requires a higher charging voltage than
a typical flooded lead acid battery.

Well, batteries can die suddenly, and this may result in somebody getting stranded in a random place.
There is nothing wrong with upgrading a battery, even before its' death, and if there is clearly a better solution, I would go for it regardless how fresh my flooded lead acid factory battery is. Alas this is the issue, there is no silver bullet out there at this time, while LiFePO4 seems very promising and exciting, the need for BMS tampers that. I also think the self-heating solutions are in their infancy, given a few years they may become more robust and mainstream, along with better prices. I may actually opt for an AGM after all at this time, as I can foresee it lasting for quite a while, and with the winter coming, might just as well bite the bullet now.
The weight is similar, but there are pluses in that these are more resistant to shaking (I always hated that about flooded lead acid), and the price is not exorbitant. I've done a few mods to my Leaf already (horn, internal/external LEDs including yellow fogs, trunk organizer, rear seat cup holder, 3D mats), why not the 12V battery :D
 
Stanton said:
You have to remember a couple of things:
  • #1) it isn't always as cold (under the hood of a car) as you think, and (more importantly)
  • #2) you get what you pay for (I didn't buy a crappy Chinese-made battery).

Also keep in mind, the Leaf *also* reduces charging current in the cold to the battery because even SLA and AGM can't have 100 amps pumped into them when it's freezing outside, they would also get damaged. I'm fairly certain that is why both our LiFePO4 batteries (mine and Stanton) have lasted this many years. I know for certain the BMS on my old LiFePO4 battery only protects from over-charge and over-discharge, that's it. It doesn't have a heater built-in or control any of how much power goes in or comes out when used. The Leaf must be taking some steps to avoid damaging the 12v battery, even when it doesn't really know what kind of battery you are using.

Of course, if it can't charge the LiFePO4 in the cold (or does it very, very slowly), the question comes up will it last the winter. I know in one of my topics a while back I calculated it only takes 185 watts of power for a few seconds to star the Leaf and that even with the age of our LiFePO4 batteries, that would still work out to "thousands" of times we could turn on the Leaf without needing a re-charge. Might be a bit off-topic for this discussion, but it's always good to make sure the information is out there for others. :mrgreen:
 
gibacca said:
lorenfb said:
gibacca said:
Colorado. Why AGM for Leaf? Don't need the cranking amps, still heavy, more expensive and only twice the life of lead acid, to name a few reasons.

I totally agree! What's with this continued obsessiveness about replacing the Leaf's battery? It's a waste of money,
my OEM 2013 Leaf battery lasted over 7 years. It's replacement was $110. Most data reported about the need for
a Leaf battery replacement are just anecdotal! Few if any longitudinal data have been reported. Some complain
about the Leaf's low charging voltage, and then recommend an AGM which requires a higher charging voltage than
a typical flooded lead acid battery.

Well, batteries can die suddenly, and this may result in somebody getting stranded in a random place.
There is nothing wrong with upgrading a battery, even before its' death, and if there is clearly a better solution, I would go for it regardless how fresh my flooded lead acid factory battery is. Alas this is the issue, there is no silver bullet out there at this time, while LiFePO4 seems very promising and exciting, the need for BMS tampers that. I also think the self-heating solutions are in their infancy, given a few years they may become more robust and mainstream, along with better prices. I may actually opt for an AGM after all at this time, as I can foresee it lasting for quite a while, and with the winter coming, might just as well bite the bullet now.
The weight is similar, but there are pluses in that these are more resistant to shaking (I always hated that about flooded lead acid), and the price is not exorbitant. I've done a few mods to my Leaf already (horn, internal/external LEDs including yellow fogs, trunk organizer, rear seat cup holder, 3D mats), why not the 12V battery :D

Really? Guessing or you've compiled some Leaf battery data corroborating that view? You've only owned a Leaf for three years,
so what other than the anecdotal data on MNL supports your view?
 
LeftieBiker said:
Please don't interrogate people like a prosecutor with a hostile witness.

LOL Thanks, I was going to say something, but it's always best to ignore that stuff
 
I tried a Power Queen 50Ah LiFePo4 in my 2018 Leaf and it failed to work!
The BMS in the battery disconnects when the input voltage exceeds 14.6 and will not reconnect unless a higher voltage is applied to the battery.
This would leave you with a disconnected 12 battery with no way to start the car!
NOT GOOD!
The specs indicate that charge disconnect is 15V, but in my test it was more like 14.6 so I cannot use this battery... DAMN!
 
Been away from the forums forever, and the LiFePO4 batteries have caught my attention, as my 2019 SL Plus is now over 3 years old, and even though my OEM battery seems to be still good, the end may be near.

I'm looking for a self-heating battery in the 50Ah range that would fit in the 51R slot of the current battery. Amazingly, there are not that many good options out there (the best I found is some Chinese factory one that wants me to buy a bunch of them), and the ones that exist seem relatively expensive... Anybody know of a good self-heating replacement for the Leaf for let's say under $400? Would love to pick one up...
gibacca, did you ever find a battery fitting those specs? I live in Chicago, currently -10F. I'm debating AGM vs. self-heating LiFePO and it's hard to find either at all let alone at reasonable prices.

I love the discussion on this thread, but there are so many unique needs out there, the convo has gotten very muddy.
Anyone have a specific AGM and/or self-heating LiFePO battery, i.e. brand and model, they recommend for cold weather?
Maybe we need a separate thread on cold weather 12V starter batteries for the Leaf....
 
I have installed a 12v lifepo4 battery in my nissan leaf beginning of this year
So far it has worked out perfectly. Only time will tell how long it will last. I insulated my battery and added a 4w reptile heating pad. (It draws between 4-9watts).1000002584.jpg

Since the battery is smaller you'll need to get a shorter/wider battery hold down. I sourced mine on Amazon.
1000002599.jpg

Total cost for the upgrade was less than a standard battery replacement and saves weight as well.
 
I am using this:
12V 50Ah Lithium Battery 12V LiFePO4 Batteries 640W Load Power 4000+ Deep Cycle Lithium iron Phosphate Battery Built-in 50A BMS

From djlbermpw

[email protected]

Live in SoCal so no temp concerns. Cost $136 delivered quickly from US warehouse
Made a slightly wider hold down bracket on my 3D printer
File available on request
 
In my experience, a ' self heating battery ' cant generate sufficient heat for a long enough time without draining it. Those that supposedly heat during charging, are still cold before it gets charged, thus, per the BMS dont get charged until a lengthy time period after 'starting' the car for heating pads to be effective right ?
For those considering lithium but are hesitant of paying close to $500 w Bluetooth and heater or $265 w/o either, may want to consider the alternative supplier LithiumMoto at $250 that does include the Bluetooth. For heating, I would do what many in the northern climes do; use a heating pad and plug it in. Also, you may want to watch this for further info on internal heating although he references RV's the application is the same. 2 points come out of this video; first, Li battery heats itself when discharging, second, ask if the battery can be made with extra freezing temp internal thermal insulation which would be not normally needed in non freezing climates.
 
I have installed a 12v lifepo4 battery in my nissan leaf beginning of this year
So far it has worked out perfectly. Only time will tell how long it will last. I insulated my battery and added a 4w reptile heating pad. (It draws between 4-9watts).View attachment 3059

Since the battery is smaller you'll need to get a shorter/wider battery hold down. I sourced mine on Amazon.
View attachment 3060

Total cost for the upgrade was less than a standard battery replacement and saves weight as well.
dlanes, where do you live? I am dubious that this heat wrap would save me here in Chicago where it has been -10F for several days, especially if parked outside for any length of time. please let me know if you have a different experience.

mrlithium, are the heating pads you referenced in northern climes the ones that plug into the wall? those aren't helpful for when the car is parked in a parking lot for 2 hours

i'm planning to get an AGM battery. Looks like the no name brands still made by Johnson Controls are $210-$240. Brand names are $250-$275 in my area.
 
dlanes, where do you live? I am dubious that this heat wrap would save me here in Chicago where it has been -10F for several days, especially if parked outside for any length of time. please let me know if you have a different experience.

mrlithium, are the heating pads you referenced in northern climes the ones that plug into the wall? those aren't helpful for when the car is parked in a parking lot for 2 hours

i'm planning to get an AGM battery. Looks like the no name brands still made by Johnson Controls are $210-$240. Brand names are $250-$275 in my area.
I am in central Minnesota. It has been as cold as -10°F with -35°F wind chill recently. I have a small heating pad on my battery besides the insulation. I let it sit overnight in the cold and checked the battery temp and it was between 25-35°F on the battery surface. The heating pad I used is 120v 4w but I have seen as high as 9watts draw when it was the coldest.

If you're curious the lifepo4 battery I bought was $99 with $10 shipping. The battery hold down was $10 on Amazon. The heating pad was around $10. The insulation was a bit over $10 and the screw on battery terminals were $6. So around $150 total for the upgrade. A new oe style battery was $200.
 
gibacca, did you ever find a battery fitting those specs? I live in Chicago, currently -10F. I'm debating AGM vs. self-heating LiFePO and it's hard to find either at all let alone at reasonable prices.

I love the discussion on this thread, but there are so many unique needs out there, the convo has gotten very muddy.
Anyone have a specific AGM and/or self-heating LiFePO battery, i.e. brand and model, they recommend for cold weather?
Maybe we need a separate thread on cold weather 12V starter batteries for the Leaf....
I went with a Die Hard AGM after all, could not really convince myself that a LiFePO4 was worth it and would work well in cold. And we had some cold weather this December and January! I've had the AGM for about a year now, checking it periodically shows it's barely above 12V most of the time (12.1-12.2 at best). Seems to work, not sure if the Leaf is charging it enough though...
 
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