cwerdna
Posts: 13169
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

GRA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm
cwerdna wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:17 am
GRA wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:08 pm One oddity of the driver's display is that the speedometer readout is on the right rather than the left, for no obvious reason. Since it's all digital you'd think being able to switch the speed and DTE/capacity displays left to right, so that it's be more like the speedo left/tach etc. right displays ... would be easy.
Will respond to your other reply later but again, I've never heard of any convention nor uniformity as to which side on US market automobiles.

I had a '93 Dodge Caravan for awhile. https://www.ebay.com/itm/234606594092?h ... ke%3ADodge looks correct: tach left, speedo middle.

As for letting the driver switch, the two dials don't appear to be generic LCDs with totally addressable pixels. It seems they have discrete segments and even the centering of the numbers is different on the left vs. right. If you look at the cluster (pic at https://electrek.co/2019/05/07/kia-niro-ev-review/). you'll see the outer edges are different from the left and right. Left gauge has a break at the top and has different colored segments on the right.

Left gauge outer ring starts in red but it doesn't on the right one. Right one has a blue band the left one doesn't have. There's also a red band at the max. Inner ring of right side fills as you go faster, in place of a needle.

The middle between the two gauges is an LCD where you can display any arbitrary text or graphics. It doesn't seem like the round gauges and their interiors are that way at all. The gauge cluster on the '22 Niro EV is not one large LCD panel as far as I can tell, but I haven't examined carefully under bright light.
I wasn't saying that the Niro was currently set up to do this,it just seems like if you're going to the trouble of using a digital display which allows you to change the info shown, it would be fairly easy to allow for it.
As I said, it wasn't set up that way. Today, I looked more closely and realized that the right side of the left dial is actually part of the LCD w/individually addressable pixels. I don't change the drive modes (always have driven in normal) and today, after mucking with it I made that discovery. I uploaded a video. You can see a black dividing line between the left incomplete round gauge and the center LCD.
https://youtu.be/3jRVm3JVhcM

Back to lack of uniformity, I did some Google image searches for stuff ilke:
corvette c4 gauges - was digital w/tach left and speedo right
corvette c5 gauges - tach left, speedo right
corvette c6 gauges - ditto
corvette c7 gauges - speedo left, tach middle
camaro gauges - came up with a '14 and '15 on Ebay with speedo left and tach right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpyjoJPQs2o - tach left, speedo right

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
Posts: 13940
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

cwerdna wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:22 am
GRA wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:57 pm
cwerdna wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:17 am
Will respond to your other reply later but again, I've never heard of any convention nor uniformity as to which side on US market automobiles.

I had a '93 Dodge Caravan for awhile. https://www.ebay.com/itm/234606594092?h ... ke%3ADodge looks correct: tach left, speedo middle.

As for letting the driver switch, the two dials don't appear to be generic LCDs with totally addressable pixels. It seems they have discrete segments and even the centering of the numbers is different on the left vs. right. If you look at the cluster (pic at https://electrek.co/2019/05/07/kia-niro-ev-review/). you'll see the outer edges are different from the left and right. Left gauge has a break at the top and has different colored segments on the right.

Left gauge outer ring starts in red but it doesn't on the right one. Right one has a blue band the left one doesn't have. There's also a red band at the max. Inner ring of right side fills as you go faster, in place of a needle.

The middle between the two gauges is an LCD where you can display any arbitrary text or graphics. It doesn't seem like the round gauges and their interiors are that way at all. The gauge cluster on the '22 Niro EV is not one large LCD panel as far as I can tell, but I haven't examined carefully under bright light.
I wasn't saying that the Niro was currently set up to do this,it just seems like if you're going to the trouble of using a digital display which allows you to change the info shown, it would be fairly easy to allow for it.
As I said, it wasn't set up that way.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that the Niro was capable of doing this, I was saying that if you're going to use digital displays anyway, why would you limit your flexibility by not making them capable of this?

cwerdna wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:22 am Today, I looked more closely and realized that the right side of the left dial is actually part of the LCD w/individually addressable pixels. I don't change the drive modes (always have driven in normal) and today, after mucking with it I made that discovery. I uploaded a video. You can see a black dividing line between the left incomplete round gauge and the center LCD.
https://youtu.be/3jRVm3JVhcM

Try accelerating in Eco vs. Normal (and Sport if you want), and see if you notice a difference in accel. When passing I didn't notice any difference between the first two (and AFAIR didn't try Sport, as the steering feel was fine by me), just different throttle mapping. OTOH, the Ioniq 5/EV6 definitely felt like they limited power output in Eco mode.

BTW, do you change the regen level a lot as I do (at least on twisty and/or mountain roads), or do you find you just leave it at the same level all the time? I really noticed the lack of one-pedal driving around town, although it wasn't an issue on the highway, where I was often using ACC in any case when the road wasn't tight. But I like driving a stick (on more interesting roads) because it's more engaging, so I undoubtedly change the regen more often than someone who's a 'set it and forget it' type.


cwerdna wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:22 am Back to lack of uniformity, I did some Google image searches for stuff ilke:
corvette c4 gauges - was digital w/tach left and speedo right
corvette c5 gauges - tach left, speedo right
corvette c6 gauges - ditto
corvette c7 gauges - speedo left, tach middle
camaro gauges - came up with a '14 and '15 on Ebay with speedo left and tach right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpyjoJPQs2o - tach left, speedo right
Last edited by GRA on Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
cwerdna
Posts: 13169
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

I'm guessing that didn't want to go with a large fully addressable LCD for the gauge cluster. This let them go w/a smaller one.

Yes, I did try sport mode and they just adjusted the pedal mapping to make the car car feel faster than normal mode. I can't explain the behavior of the graphics on the right side of the left dial in modes other than the normal nor do I really care to understand it. Normal mode is fine for me.

As for regen level, I used to keep it at max but now I have it in "smart regen" which the manual IIRC doesn't really explain well. It feels basically like max to me. IIRC, max regen (w/o pressing the left paddle) is weaker than Bolt's L mode. And, unlike Bolt in L and BMW i3, Niro EV doesn't let you come to a complete stop if you press no pedals. You gotta use the brake pedal or press and hold the left paddle to come to a stop.

There is a left paddle quirk though. IIRC, while in smart regen, if the cruise control is engaged maintaining a speed, if you press the left paddle, it complains with a beep and message basically saying you can't do that. And, you won't slow down. You need to turn off/cancel CC or press the brake pedal to brake in this case.

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
Posts: 13940
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

cwerdna wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:42 pm I'm guessing that didn't want to go with a large fully addressable LCD for the gauge cluster. This let them go w/a smaller one.

Yes, I did try sport mode and they just adjusted the pedal mapping to make the car car feel faster than normal mode. I can't explain the behavior of the graphics on the right side of the left dial in modes other than the normal nor do I really care to understand it. Normal mode is fine for me.

As for regen level, I used to keep it at max but now I have it in "smart regen" which the manual IIRC doesn't really explain well. It feels basically like max to me. IIRC, max regen (w/o pressing the left paddle) is weaker than Bolt's L mode. And, unlike Bolt in L and BMW i3, Niro EV doesn't let you come to a complete stop if you press no pedals. You gotta use the brake pedal or press and hold the left paddle to come to a stop.

There is a left paddle quirk though. IIRC, while in smart regen, if the cruise control is engaged maintaining a speed, if you press the left paddle, it complains with a beep and message basically saying you can't do that. And, you won't slow down. You need to turn off/cancel CC or press the brake pedal to brake in this case.

I found the same effects re regen and cruise, although I didn't use Smart regen. My impression is also Level 3 regen isn't as strong as the Bolt in L, but as it's been almost two years since I drove the Bolt on the same trip and that was the first BEV I drove that allowed me to adjust the regen, I don't put a lot of trust in the accuracy of that.

Found a comparo of the ID.3 and 2023 Niro EV, which claims that the 2023 Niro has a lower max. charge rate (72 vice 77-78kW) than the earlier model which contradicts other sources, but says that the average rate is higher, which is how they get 45 minute charge times apparently from 10 to 80%. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UHX_P1vr4, from 12:45-13-15.

Edit: BTW, that review also shows that the 2023 Niro EV has a power liftgate. Aaargh!, one more reason for me to prefer the earlier model.
Last edited by GRA on Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
GRA
Posts: 13940
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

IEVS:
2023 Kia Niro EV Gets A Free 500 KWH From Electrify America

The 500 free kilowatt hours is good for around 1,950 miles, all compliments of a Kia - Electrify America deal.
https://insideevs.com/news/613520/kia-n ... -charging/


For comparison, the EV6 gets 1,000 kWh at EA chargers, the Ioniq 5 gets 2 years of 30 minute FCs, and the ID.4 gets 3 years ditto.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
cwerdna
Posts: 13169
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

GRA wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:02 am
cwerdna wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:16 pm My '22 Niro EV is actually leased. Lease ends near the end Jan 2025.

If the new and used car situation is still nutty at that time and the Niro EV is reasonably reliable for me and in CR, there is the possibility I might buy it at lease end.

Mine is the base trim (EX) w/no options.
Thanks. Since you've had it long enough for the 'new car halo' effect to wear off, any additional likes/dislikes/corrections you'd care to add?
Besides what I mentioned at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 97#p618697, here are a few other that annoy on Niro EV vs. '19 Bolt Premier or former '13 Leafs:
- off-center port still isn't great vs. center of nose. I ran into this w/an EA site where you had to bring in the handles from the side. It just didn't quite reach for the orientation I was parked in. I had to exit (was parked nose in) then back and use a different DC FC. It'd have probably reached if Niro EV had a centered inlet.
- the J1772 charging lock can be annoying. There's no never lock position. Best you can do is auto. If you try to unplug while it's still charging via J1772, even unlocking the doors may not be enough to release the stupid lock. You may have to use the unlock button on the key fob. Bolt doesn't have a J1772 lock. Leaf can be set to not lock.
- preferred how you toggled Bolt's auto high beam feature (Intellibeam) via a button on the left stalk. Niro EV's actuation method is inferior, IMHO so I almost never use theirs.

Bolt had some features like these that Niro EV doesn't have/doesn't do:
- Bolt had some nice touches like pressing the phone hang up button also muted the stereo.
- On Bolt, if you muted the stereo (e.g. by pressing stereo's "power" button), if you turned up the volume via its knob, it'd emit sound again.
- I kinda liked the speed limit warning chimes on Bolt. Once you reached a passed a user configurable speed (e.g. 75 mph), it'd emit a chime and show you a message that you exceeded it.
- follow distance display kinda forced me to keep my distance on the highway. I tried to keep it at 2.5 seconds or >2.5 seconds (that's what it displays if beyond 2.5 seconds).
- stop button on infotainment system to stop DC charging
- Bolt's target charge level screen let you set when to stop in 5% increments from 40% to 100%. Niro EV's is only in 10% increments and min is 50%. But, Niro EV lets you set separate stop charging levels for DC vs. AC charging.

Niro EV likes:
- do like the the stock nav system does support multi-touch (e.g. pinch and zoom for built in nav but I hardly use that).
- alert that the vehicle in front is pulling away

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
cwerdna
Posts: 13169
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Kia Niro BEV

2023 Kia Niro EV first drive – where does this ‘intelligent EV’ fit in Kia’s lineup?
https://electrek.co/2022/10/09/2023-kia ... as-lineup/

2023 Kia Niro First Drive Review: One little SUV, three electrified flavors
It could be the perfect car for the times, but pricing is a serious question
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/10/202 ... rst-drive/

'22 Niro EV
'19 Bolt Premier (bought back by GM)
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.
GRA
Posts: 13940
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

I see the 2023 has the charge port centered, so one issue fixed. Personally I didn't have any major problems with it at the EA sites I tried to use. The one charger on the side rather than the head of the stall required that I only drove the car partway into the space rather than pulling all the way in to get the cable to reach, but the car's short enough that it didn't stick out too much to be a hazard. The EV6 was worse (and the Ioniq would be as well); having the port at the rear corner of the car just in front of the taillight gave me the same problem as you describe. Not only did I have to move to a different charger, I had to back only partway into the space, sticking well out into the lane.

One other issue: None of these cars seem to have a good light to see the charge port, although the Niro was the best of the bunch. This means that connecting up is done by feel at poorly-lighted chargers. It's ridiculous, as both the EV6 and Ioniq have banks of presumably LED lights showing the SoC range right next to the charge port, so how difficult would it be to add one that illuminates the port itself? It would only need to be on for a minute or two. The Niro had a light that did a better job, but it was only on one of the three times I could have used it; not sure just what action's required to have it be on.

Oh, I thought the Niro's two separate, removable plastic cover plugs for the J1772 and DC pins, kept from falling to the ground by attached plastic tethers when not covering the ports, seemed kind of cheap and unnecessary. Even if you need two separate covers, something like the Bolt's spring-loaded fold-down cover for the DC pins seems a lot more elegant as well as less susceptible to damage or loss.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
GRA
Posts: 13940
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

One more review of all the 2023 Niro variants, from GCR:
Review: 2023 Kia Niro EV, hybrid and PHEV up their efficiency credentials
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... ive-review


From this and a couple of other reviews it appears the EX may no longer come with cloth seats. I hope that's not the case. This article also says the Niro EV comes with 500 'hours' of charging at EA chargers which is almost certainly wrong, as other sources say "500kWh". That's far more believable, as the larger battery EV6 gets 1,000kWh at EA chargers.

Also, the EV appears to be limited to either silver or black for the side 'wings', unlike the other versions where you can get it body color. I suspect there'll be a lot of complaints about that.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.
GRA
Posts: 13940
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Kia Niro BEV

ABG:
2023 Kia Niro EV pricing starts around $40,000, seems fair

Pricing is competitive with most EV competitors, but the Bolt EUV massively undercuts it
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/19/202 ... v-pricing/

In our 2023 Kia Niro first drive review, we had pricing for the hybrid and plug-in hybrid versions, but the 2023 Niro EV was still labeled TBD. Well, now we know, and it's basically what you'd expect given the last generation, the competition and Kia's other electrified options.

There are two trim levels: Wind and Wave. Pricing starts at $40,745, including the $1,295 destination charge, and comes very well-equipped with 17-inch alloy wheels, a tire mobility kit (no spare), automatic LED headlights, heated mirrors, automatic wipers, privacy glass, a power liftgate, an eight-way power driver seat, an upholstery consisting of cloth and simulated leather (made out of recycled eucalyptus), heated front seats, a simulated leather-wrapped steering wheel, dual-zone automatic climate control, wireless phone charging, 10.25-inch instrument and infotainment screens, wired Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, five USB ports, a Harman Kardon six-speaker sound system, and Kia's full complement of safety technologies.

The Wave then starts at $45,745 and is roughly equivalent to the other Niros' SX Touring trim level. It adds the vehicle-to-load inverter that lets you power electronics or even other cars, upgraded headlights, foglights, power-folding mirrors, a sunroof, an eight-way power passenger seat, driver memory settings, full eucalyptus "leather" upholstery, heated and ventilated front seats, heated steering wheel, the upgraded Highway Driving Assist 2 system (adaptive cruise control is standard, but this adds automated lane changes and AI adaptation to your driving style), the Smart Park automated parking assist, parking sensors and rear automatic braking.

One notable difference between the Niro EV and the other two Niros. The same array of colors are available, but it would seem that the gloss black aero blade is not (pictured above right on a hybrid). It is body colored with the exception of the white-and-silver combination you see pictured above left. That's a shame. The black side trim does remain, however.

As you're probably wondering, the 2022 Kia EV6 starts at $42,695, or about $2,000 more than the Niro EV. It's bigger, more refined and will charge significantly quicker, but the base Light trim is good for only 232 miles. It's also RWD, which will be a no-go for folks in many parts of the country. The Niro EV is FWD only and should be good for 253 miles. It should also be a bit quicker. The EV6 Wind RWD trim, meanwhile, is a little quicker, should be good for more than 300 miles and is equipped similarly to the Niro EV Wave. It starts at $48,795. The Wind e-AWD version is $52,695, but remember that comes with a big-time power bump. . . .

So it would seem that you can still get cloth seats, and the aero blade is available body-colored in the BEV. Now if they would just get rid of the power liftgate and power driver's seat as well as the auto headlights and wipers, that should allow the Wind's base MSRP to be back below $40k, hopefully well below. Moving the heated mirrors from standard to a cold-weather option package would also help. You could also move the heated seats there, but on a BEV they're as much about maximizing range as they are comfort and convenience.

With the EV6 Light only $1,900 more I think the Niro Wind's price is a tough sell, except for people who are struggling to afford even that, or people like me who prefer a smaller car. Either car has enough range for local use, but while the Niro has 21 miles more EPA range than the EV6 Light, the latter charges so much faster that it's far better suited to weekend trips. Comparing the Niro EV Wave to the EV6 Wind RWD is even more of a mismatch, with only a $3,050 upcharge for the latter.

Saw my first 2023 Niro today, a blue HEV from behind. Can't say I care for the rear lights (reminds me of the Gen 4 Prius weirdness), but looks are way down my priority list.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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