My question is "Does that guy know the difference between male and female...?"
Was I wrong to buy a car with CHAdeMO?
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francoismarc said:
I do. LG/GM cut a lot of corners in the Bolt, but the large battery and CCS make up for it, and more.
I tell my wife that the 62 kWh Bolt is equivalent to a 50 kWh EV with good engineering in the winter
This mostly is apparent in the winter because my Bolt has very little cold weather mitigation. To wit:
No heat seating (available in other trims)
No steering wheel heating (available in other trims)
Poor cabin insulation
No heat pump
No pack heat recycling
No pack pre-conditioning
On the other hand, the Bolt has excellent thermal control of the pack in all seasons. The engineers knew where to not penny-pinch. Unlike the LEAF, which is a cluster in those areas.
As for CCS, the Bolt maxes out at 54 kW peak (150 Amps), and averages ~ 45 kW. Pretty poor, but 45 kW more than a broken, unavailable or non-existent CHAdeMO.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
Sagebrush
I am not debating that ccs won the war, but the Chademo infrastructure is still growing, not shrinking nationwide. It's not growing as fast as ccs now, but total locations and stations is still going up.
I had thought that peak Chademo would be this spring, but it looks like that we have another year of good growth.
I am not debating that ccs won the war, but the Chademo infrastructure is still growing, not shrinking nationwide. It's not growing as fast as ccs now, but total locations and stations is still going up.
I had thought that peak Chademo would be this spring, but it looks like that we have another year of good growth.
knightmb
Well-known member
DougWantsALeaf said:
Yeah, that part always confused me why they continue to built ChaDeMo except that probably because *anyone* can build a ChaDeMo station as it's open source in a way. I do think though that myself and others will simply use kits to swap out our ChaDeMo with CCS in the near future. It would be great if Nissan would open an upgrade path for this, but being a for profit company, I won't hold my breath. :lol:
I expect Nissan to cut the CHAdeMO cord abruptly. No warning, no planned transition. And when they do, the push to yank out the CHAdeMO that does exist and re-use the infrastructure is going to be loud because it makes money sense for the operators.
And without the political power of Nissan to plead the case of the LEAF owner who bought dead tech to "save" a few dollars, I expect a swift and brief burial. Moreover, a Nissan exit will kill the CHAdeMO standards body and make it easy for the dieselgate administrators to exit stage left.
And without the political power of Nissan to plead the case of the LEAF owner who bought dead tech to "save" a few dollars, I expect a swift and brief burial. Moreover, a Nissan exit will kill the CHAdeMO standards body and make it easy for the dieselgate administrators to exit stage left.
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Japan and China use the same standard now, based on CHAdeMO.
While in the USA, CCS1 has won, the same can't be said for Japan and China. And most of the world is CCS2.
https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/chademo-and-china-release-new-ev-quick-charging-standard-in-a-bid-to-leapfrog-the-industry/
https://insideevs.com/news/333637/european-ccs-type-2-combo-2-conquers-world-ccs-combo-1-exclusive-to-north-america/
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
I'll not reply to or quote your first statement. You might want to reconsider it.
Charging networks have a strong network effect. Japan and China is one large area, so their own standard works. For China and Japan, of course. And CCS2 works for most of the world. N.A. is a small market, and so can probably maintain it's own standard, and likely that's CCS1.
WetEV said:
Are you suggesting it is racist ?
LOL. I was saying Chad 3.0 is a superset of GB/T and Chad 2.0
CHad 3.0 was released in 2020 to fanfare, but so far as I can tell there is not a single charger in the wild 2.5 years later and the PR outlets have been silent for years . Your declaration of Far East homogeneity is an unrealized fantasy (although I'll be the first to admit it looked like a good idea on paper.) Heck, the SAE even got into the act and said that a CCS2 adapter is possible.
WetEV
Well-known member
Ever seen a GB/T 20234.3? In North America, of course, travel doesn't count.SageBrush said:
Ok ... I read a bit about this frankenstein
A new plug called ChaoJi that fits into .... no EVs
Instead it pairs with either a CHAdeMO adapter or a a GB/T adapter.
Depending on the adapter, either CHAd 3.0 or some GB/T protocol is used
No wonder it has been a flop in both Japan and China
You may as well proclaim that Tesla and CCS2 are unified. :lol: :lol: :lol:
A new plug called ChaoJi that fits into .... no EVs
Instead it pairs with either a CHAdeMO adapter or a a GB/T adapter.
Depending on the adapter, either CHAd 3.0 or some GB/T protocol is used
No wonder it has been a flop in both Japan and China
You may as well proclaim that Tesla and CCS2 are unified. :lol: :lol: :lol:
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
There once was a CCS1 specification, and for a while, there were exactly zero CCS1 cars.
We are in a wrong part of the world to pay close attention to the progress of the Chaoji world, or lack there of. Back to my point, Nissan stopping selling one car in North America isn't going to change the charging network in China and Japan.
Oh, and Tesla just cut prices in China again. Stock set a new low for the year.
WetEV said:
CCS was proposed in 2011, ratified in 2012, and both chargers and cars made in 2013. This was early, early, EV days
Fast forward to ratification of ChaoJi in 2020 in years where China's passenger car market is ~ 20% EV
.. 2020: Nada except for PR and an Electrek article https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/chademo-and-china-release-new-ev-quick-charging-standard-in-a-bid-to-leapfrog-the-industry/ that anticipated ChaoJi cars and chargers in 2021.
.. 2021: Zip
..2022: Crickets
Anyway, your 'point' was that CHAdeMO and GB/T are unified. That is BS, and in fact close to the opposite is true which is why ChaoJi REQUIRES both an adapter and unique software for each type of EV. I do find it interesting that CHAdeMO and GB/T are not closer implementations since they both use CanBus and two pin DC. But then there is an awful lot about this stuff I do not understand so the unexpected need for a Frankenstein plug is just a reflection of my ignorance (and yours). I accept that they are quite different in ways I am not familiar with.
Ever heard of Google Search ?
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Add the pandemic, the added tensions between China and the world, and the large installed base especially in China... Might take longer, eh?
SageBrush said:
My point was this is total BS:
NIO and others are rolling out ~500kW chargers, which are beyond the capabilities of the GB/T specification. Not to mention beyond the charging capabilities any car that NIO sells. I can't find any details on the connector. Can you?
WetEV said:
Nope. Only PR stuff, although 600 - 650 Amps is mentioned, far beyond the 250 Amps of the 2015 GB/T spec. I have only read about ChaoJi in the context of a needed adapter so I'm not sure if they are proposing a much higher amperage adapter along with a new GB/T spec or if the cars will be adapter-less and have CHAoJi ports. If the latter is true, they will need a way to connect to the existing GB/T infrastructure.
NIO is a hype machine. I'll believe it when I see it.
Lastly, the last leg of the Chinese 3phase distribution system is 220v (L-N), 380v (L-L). At 200 Amps that is 132 kW, 264 kW at 400 Amps. I'll hazard a guess that this is why Nio currently has no EVs that exceed 90 kW. If China has widespread infrastructure bottlenecks then the high fallutin' specs are just for show.
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Looks to me like a chicken and egg problem. How do you sell a car that can take a higher charge rate and requires an adapter to charge on older chargers if there are no chargers with a higher rate? Seems to me to be easier to install higher rate chargers first. Then sell the new cars with the new connector and higher rate charging, that can take at least some trips much faster.
CCS1 didn't have that problem, as there was zero existing cars and chargers.
My point was this is total BS:
CHAdeMO does not depend on anything that happens in North America. Ditto for Chaoji.
You misunderstood my comment.
I am not saying that N.A decides CHAdeMO, I am saying that when Nissan quasi-formally abandons CHAdeMO, so then too will the US regulatory agencies.
CHAdeMO as an "open standard" has always been a farce since it is actually only a published protocol. CHAdeMO is Nissan, even though its patents are owned by TEPCO and the connector remains proprietary. IIRC, Ghosn envisioned 500k Nissan CHAdeMO EVs a year by around 2015. The latest CHAdeMO EV sales figures for 2022 are 11,000 in Japan and a few thousand in China. It is true that Japan has a CHAdeMO infrastructure that has its own considerable inertia, but CHAdeMO development is moribund. Even the new Ariya has not been clocked over 84 kW on CHAdeMO even though it is spec'd to 130 kW on CCS.
With CHAdeMO R&D non-existent, why keep up the open standard farce ? It is not like Nissan is swimming in cash.
I am not saying that N.A decides CHAdeMO, I am saying that when Nissan quasi-formally abandons CHAdeMO, so then too will the US regulatory agencies.
CHAdeMO as an "open standard" has always been a farce since it is actually only a published protocol. CHAdeMO is Nissan, even though its patents are owned by TEPCO and the connector remains proprietary. IIRC, Ghosn envisioned 500k Nissan CHAdeMO EVs a year by around 2015. The latest CHAdeMO EV sales figures for 2022 are 11,000 in Japan and a few thousand in China. It is true that Japan has a CHAdeMO infrastructure that has its own considerable inertia, but CHAdeMO development is moribund. Even the new Ariya has not been clocked over 84 kW on CHAdeMO even though it is spec'd to 130 kW on CCS.
With CHAdeMO R&D non-existent, why keep up the open standard farce ? It is not like Nissan is swimming in cash.
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
The future of Chanji aka CHAdeMO 3.0 isn't here yet, and might never be in Japan. I agree I was wrong. I know, shocking.
This is 100% USDA BS:
SageBrush said:
And of course, you are never wrong.
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