62kwh Leaf Plus Efficiency Posting

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Ok, I will put my last trip from Chicago to Kansas and back in the S+. Different than last trip, we had 4 adult size people and a full cargo area this time. (Last time it was 2 adults). 584 miles out and 564 miles back as we visited friends in the south of Kansas city (vs. Lawrence) which added almost 100 miles.

On the way out I made a couple bad mistakes. My first mistake was before leaving. Chicago had gone through a hot June with many days over 100F. While the evening cooled a little, I charged at home the night before we left but in a hot garage, further warmed by the L2 charging. Battery was 90F at 7am when we headed out.

The first leg out went great. We did the 230 miles to Iowa City with amazing efficiency. With AC on for 80% of the journey and keeping up with highway speeds we pulled in with 2% battery on the dash (6 kWh remaining) left and 4.5 miles/kWh (technically pulled up to 4.6 when we got to the charger). Iowa city in 2019 had 0 DC chargers. There are now 5 DC locations each with multiple Chademos. This stop had 2 stations across the street from each other, both with dual stations. What a change from my first trip to iowa in the SV+. Because I ran it very low, pack temp was 100F before charging with ambient low 90s. We stopped and had a nice lunch.

Mistake 2 was when the car was charging at about half way it quickly ramped down from 4x kW to 20. I wasn't really checking, so when back at the car, we were at 80 vs. the 9X% I was expecting. Its something goofy with these mid America chargers. I didn't make the same mistake on the way home. Pack temp 117F.

I knew it was going to be slow from here. We had to make a bathroom stop and stretch about 120 miles later in Des Moines. Charging was 30 to start then ramped down to 20 kW. We stayed about 40 minutes. So far not too bad. Pack at 123F. Next stop was about 90 miles at Bethany. The final leg was 130 miles, and efficiency on the 2nd and 3rd leg had dropped to 4.1 (I was getting lazy in driving style). So at Bethany we ended up needing to stop for 95 minutes. A lot of time at the dollar store to kill the time, but the last stop was painful. Pack temp 128F. The pack touched red shortly before we left, but dropped out of red in the first 10 minutes of driving.

We got there, but it was not so fun. Average efficiency ended at 4.3 miles/kWh. Total drive time was about 9:57 min including all the time to and from stations and a little time watching the charge rate with the car on. The almost 3 1/2 hours of charging was painful.

We L1ed at the hotel and once at the Chademo in Lawrence before heading to Kansas City. We topped off at the Oak park mall. 4 Chademos there. Poor charger placement as you had 2 double armed chargers (capable for multiple charges in parallel) between two spots so you couldn't really use both sides of both at the same time. The other 2 were single chargers (with both connectors). All chargers in use when we arrived, so I t-boned out in front of a Mach E (F150 and Rivian were also charging and a Bolt taking a spot unplugged) to use the 2nd arm on the dual station. Immediately over 50kW even at 70% SoH.

That evening we started the return tril breaking up the travel as 600 miles in a day is exhausting. We did KC to Desmoines with a 14 min potty stop in Cameron. We overnighted in Desmoines at a hotel with L2 charging. The following day did a single stop in Davenport post 182 miles for lunch before making the 170 mile trek home. The stop was the same sort of charger as on the way in, so caught it was I dropped from 40 down to 20. After restarting (at 68%) it jumped back up to 30 kW. Not amazing, but allowed us to be at 96% by the time we finished lunch (with 2 young Adults in tow, nothing goes fast). AC on all the way home, but temps were milder than on the way out.

Efficiency for the overall return trip was 4.1 miles/kWh but was a few mph faster on the overall average. The total return distance was 563 miles, so 20 miles less than outbound.

I think with the efficient rims, 400-450 miles in a day is very doable in summer. Fall spring you can do the full 600 with some planning. Certainly not Tesla or EV6 fast, but very manageable for a $23K EV. I need those breaks if doing all of the driving myself...wife and daughter drove exactly 0 miles of the trip.

All of the stops had multiple Chademos as that is no longer a challenge to find. The Iowa city stop and Cameron were new since my last run. At least foe Iowa, Missouri, and East Kansas charging is reasonably plentiful and everything was working for the most part. Cost is great, with most stations at .15 - .17 per kWh. That's barely over my home costs. The whole trip was around $40 is DC charge fees. It would have been $250 for an ICE for the 1250+ miles.

Next trip will be later in the year. I think I have 1 or 2 more years before the Chicago to Iowa City run will be too much of a stretch on a charge at highway speeds. As there are now 4 or 5 Davenport Iowa stations, the trip will still be very doable. But at that point I will be dreaming of new EVs. If the Leaf had a 300 mile range vs. 200, thermal mgmt wouldn't matter in the midwest as 1 full re-harge would go beyond what I would want to drive in a day anyway.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
If the Leaf had a 300 mile range vs. 200, thermal mgmt wouldn't matter in the midwest as 1 full re-harge would go beyond what I would want to drive in a day anyway.

This is pretty much what went through my mind when I bought my 300 mile range Tesla, and it is true ... if you are willing to drive in the low 60s mph after accounting for wind. Now with experience, I say 350 mile range is OK and 400 mile range would be most excellent.

If you want to give a fair accounting of costs, include any extra food and lodging costs you incur with EV travel that would not be present with ICE travel.
 
Good question on food. Would we hit more fast food and less sit down if we were in an ICE/modern EV? I can say that it feels like Dairy Queen made a deal to have location at every Missouri/Kansas location..and given my weakness for softserve has cost my waistline.

The night in Des Moines wasn't extra, as we would have stayed in KC otherwise. It did save us an hour or more of charging time on the road.

I agree 400 is the minimum ideal when you factor in weather possibilities. Heavy rain or hard head wind is murder on efficiency.

On funny anecdote was that the Tesla population is quickly growing beyond ev enthusiasts. Twice model S drivers appeared with j1772 adapters trying to figure out how to connect to a DC only station.
 
Speaking to the food aspect of charging. It's simply a matter of training yourself not to eat junk food on the road. My wife packs a picnic for most of our day trips and we either charge at free Level 2 chargers or Nissan dealer fast chargers and have lunch in their lounge.
 
True.

Even in our ICE days we would stop for one long meal a day just to break up the driving. We also pack coolers with plenty of food, but somehow that food looks less exciting a couple days into the trip.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Ok, I will put my last trip from Chicago to Kansas and back in the S+. ...

"Mistake 2 was when the car was charging at about half way it quickly ramped down from 4x kW to 20"

Problem with hot pack at charge start is early rampdown so not really unexpected.

" Immediately over 50kW even at 70% SoH."

Typical of 100 kw stations. Its interesting that the rampdown does "not" match speeds with 50 kw at higher SOC's. So its not about power but %'s which means that 50 kw "could" provide more power longer like the 30 kwh packs.

"After restarting (at 68%) it jumped back up to 30 kW."

Unless a restart can be done quickly, its not gaining you any time. The LEAF always starts fairly high (based on starting SOC/temp) but ramps down faster so you may have had a higher rate but likely very briefly so not worth effort unless it can be done quickly to avoid losing much charging time.

I tried this a few times (battery not quite that hot) and found the curve is nearly continuous minus the little up bump.

When you add up the charge times, you might have had better luck with shorter stops charging the bottom 2/3rds of the pack. Of course, this requires stations to be in the right spot.
 
Dave it was literally a stop and restart within 1 minutes, and it stayed at 30 for an extended period (25-30 min) before starting to ramp down a little. It definitely helped. On the way out..it would have helped in that I would have avoided the low voltage heating I saw on ensuing stops.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
The over heating is only an issue on long drives and the plus requires it to be a VERY long drive.

Only an issue *for you, given your expectations.*

Drive 400 miles a day at 75 mph. How much time do you spend charging ?
Now tell us day #2 with the same driving, without overnight charging.
In the summer

And of course this all presumes that the DC charging is located where you want it, is available, and is reliable. Which in the case of CHAdeMO is a *huge* ymmv

Gerry likes to tout how well the LEAF works for him, but he rarely mentions his other ICE vehicles for trips outside of commuting duties. That said, I was pretty darned sure that the higher capacity LEAFs would have even worse heat related battery degradation than the 2013 - 2017 LEAFs and I'm happy to say that I was wrong. So wrong, in fact, that I would consider buying a 40 or 62 kWh CCS LEAF for 'extended commuting duties'. That is saying something, considering my extremely negative opinion of Nissan corporate and its dealerships.


So this is your way of saying "if you try hard enough, you can make it fail?"

I prefer the other half of the glass but you keep trying. I am sure you will convince someone somewhere.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Dave it was literally a stop and restart within 1 minutes, and it stayed at 30 for an extended period (25-30 min) before starting to ramp down a little. It definitely helped. On the way out..it would have helped in that I would have avoided the low voltage heating I saw on ensuing stops.

Ok, so prob a charger fault. I have seen that before as well. Usually clued in by the temp/SOC expectations. I have to be honest; below 70% SOC, I don't think I have seen a speed below 30 kw.
 
Doug, what sort of speeds were you driving?

In hindsight, what would you have done differently aside from starting out with a cool battery?

Would slower driving have resulted in faster travel time?
 
1. Start with leaving car outside over night to habe more like an 80F battery temp.
2. Nearly ully charge at first stop. This would have made a 2 stop charge stop outbound to Kansas possible. Be leaving at 80% we had to make it a 3 charge stop day. Even if 2nd stop was long, it would have been less painful with just 2 stops. I need the breaks as I was doing all of the driving.
3. Watch the driving in the 2nd leg and be ok stopping to just use the facilities. 60 miles in...I needed the facilities and it led to faster and sub optimal driving.

Return trip was painless because we did the late night run to Desmoines. The single lunch stop in Davenport was more human limited than car.


Not related: I saw my first gen 2 leaf on the streets of Bogotá this week. No Teslas here.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I tried this a few times (battery not quite that hot) and found the curve is nearly continuous minus the little up bump.

I suppose the upside to the Leaf is that there is a ramp and it's gradual. I was charging next to a Kia which was at 46% at 47kW. Interesting because my Leaf never tops 44kW. Anyway when the Kia got to 79% it dropped to 23kW. Mine at 7 bars starting dropping at ~75% but dropped gradually as I kept charging and was at 33kW when I stopped at 82% (then because I needed to go back to work). At least we can charge faster than Kia over 79%.

I've also wondered has there been data on anyone fast charging all or most of the time and still maintaining comparable SOH decline as those who never or rarely FC?
 
Sorry I missed an answer.

Yes on leg 2 and 3, a little slower driving and some drafting would have reduced the needed charge time...likely as a small net reduction to travel time.

At 20kW I was getting about 80 miles of range per hour after charging losses. So each kW saved was 3 minutes charge time saved. If in the 230 to 430 mile mark I had moved efficiency up from 4.1 to 4.5, I would have saved about 5 kWh, or 15 minutes of charging (and maybe a degree or two off of the battery). If I shed 3 mph on speed to achieve that .4 improvement, that was about 8 minutes..so potentially 7 minutes saved.

The big savings would have been having only 2 stops.


Separately, the ambient to pack temp difference was often constantly about 30F, and other times 20F. Not sure why the difference unless the draw difference between 4.1 and 4.5 is enough to maintain that delta. In the way to Kansas in the last leg a storm front moved across dropping temps 10F (no rain) and almost instantly the battery temp started dropping a few degrees to maintain the 30F difference. On the qay home with a little tail wind, it was a pretty consistent 20F before the long DC charge.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
I think with the efficient rims, 400-450 miles in a day is very doable in summer.

I'm sure you've mentioned this somewhere else, but what rims/tires are you running the S Plus?

I think the best efficiency I've gotten at highway speeds is around 4 mi/kWh, I'd like to boost it if I keep using the Leaf for (~400 mile) road trips.
 
Stock tires with 16" EV01+ rims (about 5 lbs lighter than stock 16" rims) and 42psi.

One additional observation was that the AC in the S+ when set a couple degrees below ambient (say 86 when it's 90 out) once running for a few minutes only need about 400 watts/hr per Leaf Spy (sometimes as low as 350), yet kept the cabin with 4 of us very comfortable. I thought that looked like pretty good. I will need to test with the SV+ to compare.
 
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