Comparison: Why I Chose a Nissan Leaf Plus over a Tesla Model 3

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nlspace said:
AlexDarcy said:
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BATTERY:
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With the 8-year/100k-mile battery warranty on the Leaf, I personally am betting that the cost of a replacement battery in 8 years, if necessary, will be much lower than today.
...
There are aftermarket options to replace the battery on a Leaf from non-Nissan companies.

That's a interesting bet considering that the battery that fits your car may not be available in 8 years.

i'm not aware of any viable aftermarket options such as you mention.

The number of aftermarket installers is growing but currently facing an issue of not being able to get any packs from Nissan so only able to use salvage packs. Since we Humans can't drive to save our lives, that supply will be ongoing.
 
frontrangeleaf said:
The supply will be ongoing whether humans are driving or not. Let's not kid ourselves.

That's just the law of large numbers at work. Stuff happens.

While this was true initially when only a handful of shops were doing it, the supply now is quite inadequate with many waiting months for a pack. 2 years ago, you could call, schedule it and it would be done in a week. Now? Put your name on a list and there no promises of how long it will take.
 
Nice post.

FYI; Nissan has provided OTA update "capability" for a few years now. They simply don't use their customers as beta testers like some other companies do. I will admit I am anxious to find out what will change when they get around to posting one. My guess it will be at the request of the NHTSA

In reading thru these posts, its pretty obvious that people will defend what they drive no matter what which includes altering facts or stating actual facts w/o clarification in order to mislead. What it boils down to is people claiming superiority based on their logic and personal finances.

The LEAF is a SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and very capable electric vehicle. No amount of spin will change that fact.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
The LEAF is a SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and very capable electric vehicle. No amount of spin will change that fact.

^^ THIS! :D

It also happens to be the only one you can buy without waiting excessively...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
nlspace said:
AlexDarcy said:
...
BATTERY:
...
With the 8-year/100k-mile battery warranty on the Leaf, I personally am betting that the cost of a replacement battery in 8 years, if necessary, will be much lower than today.
...
There are aftermarket options to replace the battery on a Leaf from non-Nissan companies.

That's a interesting bet considering that the battery that fits your car may not be available in 8 years.

i'm not aware of any viable aftermarket options such as you mention.

The number of aftermarket installers is growing but currently facing an issue of not being able to get any packs from Nissan so only able to use salvage packs. Since we Humans can't drive to save our lives, that supply will be ongoing.

I don't expect aftermarket installers to reach my neck of the woods in NW IL until the 2030s. If the right to repair bill goes anywhere it will help provide more options. (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135015_right-to-repair-bill-independent-shops-work-evs-hybrids)

I figure since my area didn't get a QC station until 2019 as part of EA mandatory build out from VW settlement and others didn't arrive until a year or two after - 3rd party repair here will be a slow thing to appear making OEMs the only game in town for batteries.
 
GerryAZ said:
Nissan warranties in USA are 3 years, 36,000 miles bumper-to-bumper; 5 years, 60,000 miles EV systems and powertrain; 8 years, 100,000 miles on traction battery. You can purchase extended warranties that will cover most of the car except maintenance items such as wipers and brake pads for additional cost. I have not found extended warranties that cover traction batteries. The extended warranty I purchased for my 2015 did pay for replacement of the intelligent brake controller after the basic warranty and EV systems/powertrain warranty had both already expired.
Good for you.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Nice post.
The LEAF is a SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and very capable electric vehicle. No amount of spin will change that fact.

The more I drive my 2021 SV Plus, yes, it is a very capable vehicle. Some comments about comparisons with my Daughter's Model 3 that indicate it is also very capable, but for me is not worth the ~$15,000 OTD with Fed tx credit price delta.

  • Very impressed and somewhat jealous of the Tesla's display, especially the "mapping/routing" and ability to "see" vehicles all around the Tesla.
  • Really like the see through roof of the Tesla
  • The "overhead" camera simulation is great in the Leaf - missing in this model year Tesla.
  • In four years, the battery degradation seems minimal of the Tesla - apparently less than 10 miles range - a concern of my Leaf in the future as in about a year, I've lost ~ 6 miles range.
  • The Leaf's back seat comfort is so much better as the Tesla is such a harsh ride. Maybe later versions have resolved this.
  • The big "tunnel" in the Leaf's back seat area would be very uncomfortable for any long term trip with 3 in the back seat. The Tesla is totally flat and spacious for leg room - however, very rough ride.
  • I am more comfortable with the conventional feel of the leaf - rather than driving with smart phone.
  • Having said that, the "car play" of the Leaf is so limited - essentially becomes a second "navigation" system for me.
 
My neighbor boy a new model Y last July. In talking to him this past week, he mentioned that he had lost close to 20 miles of rated range (~6%). While also just a single data point, it doesn't appear the M3/Y batteries do any better than current Leaf batteries.
 
In comparing the Leaf and the Tesla batteries, even though they have similar warranties the Leaf battery seems to deteriorate much more quickly than the Tesla. My 2017 Leaf lost almost 18% of capacity in just under 5 years and 31K miles. And that is with an effort to not let the car sit for more than a few hours at 100% charge and to almost never go below 20% charge. I'm not sure if the decline would slow down but it didn't to in the time I had it. In fact, according to Leaf Spy pro the battery declined at about the same rate in the winter as it did in the summer. I have only had a new 2022 S+ for about 9 weeks so it is too soon to see if it will do any better than the 2017. From my experience, it seems that there is something about the chemistry that Nissan uses in their Leaf batteries that causes them to decline over time more rapidly than other EV batteries.

Still I have been happy with my two Leafs and the federal tax credit was a big reason I replaced my 2017 with a 2022. Even though I mostly drive around town and the smaller battery would have worked for us, and even with significant degradation the 62kWh battery will continue to work for us.
 
The 2017 30kwh battery isn't a good choice for comparing batteries. While a few were ok, many if not most of them degraded quickly, and the battery was quickly replaced by the 40kwh pack, which seems much, much better in terms of degradation.
 
Some of the 30 kWh packs were pretty terrible, although if you didn't have the BMS firmware update installed then the reported SOH would have been artificially low on your 2017.

It does seem like the 40 kWh packs are consistently better. As you said, too soon to know how well the 62 kWh packs age.
 
I just read a long-term test report for a Tesla Model 3 by one of the major car magazines. The battery deterioration they observed in 2 years and about 50,000 miles is similar to what I have observed after 30 months and almost 50,000 miles. They mentioned issues with the touch screen and complained that HVAC controls and wiper controls are on the touch screen. The touch screen in the middle of the dash with no speedometer directly in front of the steering wheel is one reason I did not consider a Model 3 when I purchased my 2019 SL Plus.
 
bmw said:
In comparing the Leaf and the Tesla batteries, even though they have similar warranties the Leaf battery seems to deteriorate much more quickly than the Tesla. My 2017 Leaf lost almost 18% of capacity in just under 5 years and 31K miles. And that is with an effort to not let the car sit for more than a few hours at 100% charge and to almost never go below 20% charge. I'm not sure if the decline would slow down but it didn't to in the time I had it. In fact, according to Leaf Spy pro the battery declined at about the same rate in the winter as it did in the summer. I have only had a new 2022 S+ for about 9 weeks so it is too soon to see if it will do any better than the 2017. From my experience, it seems that there is something about the chemistry that Nissan uses in their Leaf batteries that causes them to decline over time more rapidly than other EV batteries.

Still I have been happy with my two Leafs and the federal tax credit was a big reason I replaced my 2017 with a 2022. Even though I mostly drive around town and the smaller battery would have worked for us, and even with significant degradation the 62kWh battery will continue to work for us.

Our 2016 SL triggered the battery warranty 5 weeks after we bought it in 2019.

We got it back Feb 2020 with the new 40 kWh. Spy Leaf was reporting a SOH loss of 0.01 daily. After it got totalled Nov 2020 I did not charge it for 18 months during the rebuild because it was at 88% charge when totalled. It was technically drivable after we stripped off everything in front of the motor.

Within a week I realized we could stop battery degradation by disconnecting the 12v battery so I mounted a blade disconnect on the negative battery post.

In the last 18 months SOH dropped by another 0.28% from 96.08 reading the date the guy ran the red light. It has been 19 days since I sent in the paperwork to get it retitled.

Clearly the 2018 forward Leaf batteries are holding up better. This rebuild has been a good experience for the son and myself. We get three shops involved as well. We did it without spending any new money and still have the 2015 SV with battery of unknown condition since Leaf Spy could not see it. The body was mint inside and out and it was totaled by the insurance company due to unknown electrical problems perhaps it took a surge because the charger comes with a red light. I can connect my good charger showing a green light but as soon as it's plugged in it turns red.

A 2022 150 mile range EV should be of interest at $20K.
 
bmw said:
My 2017 Leaf lost almost 18% of capacity in just under 5 years and 31K miles.
Stories with much worse degradation are a dime a dozen.
I think you did OK, if not better than average, for your climate
 
It's been one year since I bought my 2022 model Leaf and started this thread. What is my one-year review?

Overall, happy! I made the right decision to get the Leaf, it's been great.


Surprise positives that I didn't think I would care so much about, but I do:

* Fast and smooth acceleration (#1 surprise to me, having only owned ICE cars previously).

* Heated seats and steering wheel in the winter (will never get a car again without heated seats).

* Blind spot warning in the side mirrors.

* Having physical buttons instead of being compelled to navigate a touch screen while driving.

* Having the charge port in the nose of the car instead of back near the trunk.


Surprise negatives that I either did not anticipate or had under-estimated:

* The lack of an 80% max charge limiter (this is the #1 negative by far).

* Hard suspension that transmits small road bumps up through the seats (#2 negative).

* The damn low-velocity noise maker (#3).

* The iPhone Connect app rarely worked and was too slow when it did work (minor).

* The tinted windows are a touch too dark, and the pillars to the left and right of the windshield are a bit large, which makes driving at night in the rain a little bit more stressful (minor).


Negatives that turned out to be less bad than feared:

* The Leaf touch screen apps are not nearly as nice as the Tesla's, but 99% of the time the only app used is the radio, and I almost always flip between preset radio stations using the physical buttons on the steering wheel, not the touch screen. For maps and navigation, we prefer using our phones anyway, like when texting street addresses.

* The CHAdeMO charge port has been used zero times. We have never needed a rapid CCS or Tesla charger. The 62 kWh battery and 50 Amp NEMA 14-50 outlet in the garage has been just right for our run-around-town needs.


From Dec 2021 to Dec 2022, LeafSpy shows that AHr has gone from 175.15 (2021) down to 164.92 (2022) and SOH has gone from 99.29% (2021) down to 93.49% (2022). This was expected. We live in Texas.

After driving 15k miles, I estimate I've saved $2140 in gasoline not purchased (my old car got 21 mil/gal and gas has averaged $3/gal here). I switched my electrical billing to the "Free Nights and Weekends Plan" and have only charged after 10pm. We also started only doing laundry on the weekends. Amazingly, our average electricity bill actually declined by $19/mo in 2022 versus 2021. Weird!

So, nothing's perfect, but the Leaf has been a good purchase so far! :)
 
AlexDarcy said:
Surprise negatives that I either did not anticipate or had under-estimated:

* The lack of an 80% max charge limiter (this is the #1 negative by far).

* Hard suspension that transmits small road bumps up through the seats (#2 negative).

* The damn low-velocity noise maker (#3).

* The iPhone Connect app rarely worked and was too slow when it did work (minor).

* The tinted windows are a touch too dark, and the pillars to the left and right of the windshield are a bit large, which makes driving at night in the rain a little bit more stressful (minor).
Not really to defend the negatives as I agree with them, but some things that might help at least.

We've discovered over the years, 100% SoC isn't really 100%. My Leaf plus came with the 62 kWh battery and even when it was new, it would never charge more than 56.7 kWh into the battery. So technically, even at 100% on the Dash, I was really only charging to 91%. That 10% gaps seems to follow all the plus versions, so it might have been done on purpose to help with battery life. My wife though, has the 40 kWh battery and Nissan allowed it to be charged to a much higher percentage relative to it's rating (like almost 39 kWh if I remember reading correctly), so maybe the 40 kWh battery is actually a higher capacity (like 42 kWh for example, but no one has any definitive proof)
Basically, if you are not leaving it sit at 100% SoC for multiple days, weeks, months on end, you'll be fine.

The hard suspension is definitely just that "hard" when it is new. I've found that after enough miles and time, it will soften up, but I suppose it's because the Leaf is so much heavier than a similar ICE vehicle of the same size, so they had to use some beefier equipment to at least give it a stable ride first and maybe comfort later? :lol:

I'm one of the few that like my VPS. The ones in the Gen 1 (and 2018 as my wife still has the same VPS sound) were not as loud, but also didn't give me that "future" feeling. The new VPS (Tron sound I call it), I actually love it and it's twice as loud, more love from me. It's also good at making sure people don't walk right out in front of me, they always look when they hear it, so I know they are at least paying attention to a moving vehicle. I'm probably in the minority of people that like the Gen 2 VPS sound. :mrgreen:

I have used Android Auto a few times (only guessing the iOS version does the same stuff) and while it is neat that you can mirror the screen to the dash or split-screen applications or play movies on the Dash (which I think is illegal in a lot of states :lol: ), the novelty part wears off after a while and I don't really use it anymore. Just the basic phone and text features over blue-tooth work fine for me. The rest of the time, the Radio rules and maybe a little bluetooth music from the phone sometimes. ;)

I'm glad I wasn't the only person to notice the dark tinting. Sometimes, it makes it really hard to see around at night. Great during the day time, but at night, if they get a touch of fog on them, I do hate that part, but I've found just defrosting the cabin ahead of time and leaving it on is the only way to avoid that nightmare. Yeah, those A pillars can make some weird blind spots sometimes that I have to mentally "look around" if I'm in an angle that isn't safe. Kind of like when you are making a turn, but it's way more than 90 degrees and the pillar gets in the way. :?

Negatives that turned out to be less bad than feared:

* The Leaf touch screen apps are not nearly as nice as the Tesla's, but 99% of the time the only app used is the radio, and I almost always flip between preset radio stations using the physical buttons on the steering wheel, not the touch screen. For maps and navigation, we prefer using our phones anyway, like when texting street addresses.

* The CHAdeMO charge port has been used zero times. We have never needed a rapid CCS or Tesla charger. The 62 kWh battery and 50 Amp NEMA 14-50 outlet in the garage has been just right for our run-around-town needs.


From Dec 2021 to Dec 2022, LeafSpy shows that AHr has gone from 175.15 (2021) down to 164.92 (2022) and SOH has gone from 99.29% (2021) down to 93.49% (2022). This was expected. We live in Texas.

After driving 15k miles, I estimate I've saved $2140 in gasoline not purchased (my old car got 21 mil/gal and gas has averaged $3/gal here). I switched my electrical billing to the "Free Nights and Weekends Plan" and have only charged after 10pm. We also started only doing laundry on the weekends. Amazingly, our average electricity bill actually declined by $19/mo in 2022 versus 2021. Weird!

So, nothing's perfect, but the Leaf has been a good purchase so far! :)
It's funny you mentioned the touch screen. I do to several "EV events" a year where we show off Nissan, Tesla, Volvo, Ford, Kia, etc. EV's and answer questions for anyone interested in looking inside them, sitting on seats, looking at features, etc. People always tell me "Your EV has the smallest touch screen of all of them... and I love it". Seems having more buttons and less touch-screen is a big bonus to people that are looking at buying an EV in the future but have never really looked at one up close and personal.

Sounds like you have the perfect setup then, charge when rates are lowest and more than enough mileage to meet your daily needs. You might not be thinking of any road-trips in the future, but that adventure may come one day. :lol:
 
It is interesting that the last 2 posts mention dark window tint. Is that the factory tinted glass or did the dealer add tinting? I really like the factory tinted glass (liked it on my previous Leafs also), but hate add-on tinting because it is too dark and gets scratched over time. Car dealers in Phoenix tend to add tinting as soon as they receive the cars. I have refused to purchase cars I looked at that had add-on tint. I ordered all three LEAFs so was able to give special instructions to not add tinting when they arrived.

Regarding the comments about the touch screen--I am glad there are buttons to control the HVAC and I can control the radio with the buttons on the steering wheel. I recently rented a vehicle that required use of the touch screen to control the HVAC and really hated it. Trying to adjust temperature or turn on defrost using a touch screen in a car you are not familiar with is a challenge at best and safety hazard at worst.

FWIW, I never used the 80% charge limit on the 2011 so I did not miss it on the 2015 or 2019. I almost always fully charge the car and then deeply discharge it before charging. In my opinion, 100% charge is not a problem as long as the car does not sit for extended periods at nearly full charge.
 
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