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https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135771_hyundai-ioniq-5-road-trip-charging-350-kw-connectors-150-kw-just-as-fast

Ioniq5 charges about as fast at 150 kW EA connector as it does with 350 kW connector.

WHO WUDDA THUNK !?!!
 
SageBrush said:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135771_hyundai-ioniq-5-road-trip-charging-350-kw-connectors-150-kw-just-as-fast

Ioniq5 charges about as fast at 150 kW EA connector as it does with 350 kW connector.

WHO WUDDA THUNK !?!!


See my previous post on this, which quotes the article re pack temperature, and the possibility of an OTA update for pack pre-conditioning. Certainly sounds like it could use it in cooler temps.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135771_hyundai-ioniq-5-road-trip-charging-350-kw-connectors-150-kw-just-as-fast

Ioniq5 charges about as fast at 150 kW EA connector as it does with 350 kW connector.

WHO WUDDA THUNK !?!!


See my previous post on this, which quotes the article re pack temperature, and the possibility of an OTA update for pack pre-conditioning. Certainly sounds like it could use it in cooler temps.

You still don't get it. At ideal pack temperatures and at a 350 kW charger the power never goes above ~ 240 kW because the pack is C-rate limited. 800v packs in personal use EVs are a marketing gimmick for the ignorant. They will only become useful with larger packs, say 150 kWh or greater.

As for cool packs (a different matter entirely), I'm glad to see you have caught a clue. And it only took a couple years !
Bjorn Nyland has caught on too; he has added a cold-gate test to his suite of very useful practical tests he performs on most new EVs.
Hyundai will come up with a kludge but the absence of integration between the car and the charger is going to limit its effectiveness, and I suspect that it will be PTC pack heating.
 
GRA said:
alozzy said:
With charging rates of 150 kW or more, a 60 kWh pack is plenty big for road tripping AFAIK. On longer road trips, a good strategy would be cycles of 70 mph driving for 3 hours, followed by 20 minutes of charging. Unless the trip is thousands of miles long, that's pretty reasonable.

Unfortunately, none of the current "300 mile" or less range BEVs can cruise for 3 hours at 70, definitely not if they're only using 60% (20-80%, what I'd use) or 70% (10-80%) of total capacity. As the EPA range is Combined not HWY, you can probably subtract 9-10% from EPA for most cars to get the HWY range e.g. the 2017 Bolt's 238 EPA combined was only 217 on the HWY cycle.

Using 9%, the Ioniq 5 AWD's 256 mile combined range drops to 233 miles, and 70% of that is only 163, with 60% just 140, both before any subtraction for weather, terrain and HVAC use.
The Ioniq 5 RWD and EV6 RWD could do that and they're just over 300 miles of range. Here's a test of the EV6 AWD with a 254 mile range at 70 mph:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://insideevs.com/news/576754/kia-ev6-awd-70mph-range/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjD9qGUoc73AhUamWoFHVijB6UQtwJ6BAgREAE&usg=AOvVaw0jUhgNaYjpUcQJxNGBk2UI
 
Triggerhappy007 said:
GRA said:
alozzy said:
With charging rates of 150 kW or more, a 60 kWh pack is plenty big for road tripping AFAIK. On longer road trips, a good strategy would be cycles of 70 mph driving for 3 hours, followed by 20 minutes of charging. Unless the trip is thousands of miles long, that's pretty reasonable.

Unfortunately, none of the current "300 mile" or less range BEVs can cruise for 3 hours at 70, definitely not if they're only using 60% (20-80%, what I'd use) or 70% (10-80%) of total capacity. As the EPA range is Combined not HWY, you can probably subtract 9-10% from EPA for most cars to get the HWY range e.g. the 2017 Bolt's 238 EPA combined was only 217 on the HWY cycle.

Using 9%, the Ioniq 5 AWD's 256 mile combined range drops to 233 miles, and 70% of that is only 163, with 60% just 140, both before any subtraction for weather, terrain and HVAC use.
The Ioniq 5 RWD and EV6 RWD could do that and they're just over 300 miles of range. Here's a test of the EV6 AWD with a 254 mile range at 70 mph:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://insideevs.com/news/576754/kia-ev6-awd-70mph-range/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjD9qGUoc73AhUamWoFHVijB6UQtwJ6BAgREAE&usg=AOvVaw0jUhgNaYjpUcQJxNGBk2UI


Note that they're talking about using the battery's entire capacity, not 60 or 70%. 254 x .6 = 152, x .7 = 177.8, before subtractions for weather, hotel loads and terrain. Even the AWD versions couldn't quite make 3 hours at 70, certainly not in any but ideal conditions, but at least they're the first almost affordable BEVs that aren't really serious time killers on extended roadtrips.

OTOH, 70 mph doesn't really cut it out west. Out here there are only two states (CA, OR) with 70 mph rural interstate limits, and people normally cruise at least 5 mph higher than that. I've cruised along with the flow of traffic on I-5 here at 80 and on a few occasions at 85. 5 states (NV, UT, ID, WY, MT) have 80 mph limits, and another 4 (AZ, CO, NM, WA) have 75 mph limits. When Utah was debating raising the speed limit from 75 to 80 on I-80 west of SLC, they noted that the typical cruising speed beforehand was 82-84 mph. Shortly after raising the limit actual speeds hadn't changed, either because people were comfortable with the speed or because they were still adjusting to the new limits. I haven't seen more recent info to indicate whether or not they are now driving faster. Personally, I find 80-85 to be a comfortable speed for both my car and myself, but there are certainly times when I'd be happy to cruise at 100 if it were safe and legal to do so. I expect we'll have to wait for autonomous cars before that happens.
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135771_hyundai-ioniq-5-road-trip-charging-350-kw-connectors-150-kw-just-as-fast

Ioniq5 charges about as fast at 150 kW EA connector as it does with 350 kW connector.

WHO WUDDA THUNK !?!!


See my previous post on this, which quotes the article re pack temperature, and the possibility of an OTA update for pack pre-conditioning. Certainly sounds like it could use it in cooler temps.

You still don't get it. At ideal pack temperatures and at a 350 kW charger the power never goes above ~ 240 kW because the pack is C-rate limited. 800v packs in personal use EVs are a marketing gimmick for the ignorant. They will only become useful with larger packs, say 150 kWh or greater.

As for cool packs (a different matter entirely), I'm glad to see you have caught a clue. And it only took a couple years !
Bjorn Nyland has caught on too; he has added a cold-gate test to his suite of very useful practical tests he performs on most new EVs.
Hyundai will come up with a kludge but the absence of integration between the car and the charger is going to limit its effectiveness, and I suspect that it will be PTC pack heating.


C-rate is dependent on what individual cells can handle in terms of voltage and current, and is useful for comparing packs of similar voltage and chemistry. For a given chemistry, string more cells together in series and you don't have to put more current through them. Elseways there'd be no reason to bother with "400V" packs instead of 200V, or 36V FTM, like most electric golf carts have. P=EI applies, whether you're talking about a couple of 1.5V AA cells or the packs used in cars.

As for the effects of cold temps on batteries, I've caught a clue? I guess I must have been divinely inspired to take into account pack capacity loss and charge rates in cold weather off-grid systems, when choosing a particular battery chemistry and making sure the pack could handle both the charge and discharge requirements in cold-weather all those years ago. :roll:
 
GRA said:
C-rate is dependent on what individual cells can handle in terms of voltage and current, and is useful for comparing packs of similar voltage and chemistry. For a given chemistry, string more cells together in series and you don't have to put more current through them.

Put more cells in series, and notice what happens to the pack internal resistance.
I'm sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Introduction in June Consumers Reports:
"Hyundai Ioniq 5
ELECTRIC SUVs
The Most Sensible EV So Far
ROAD TEST
80 OVERALL SCORE
THE ALL-NEW, ALL-ELECTRIC Ioniq 5 is one of the most impressive EVs we've tested, with punchy acceleration, agile handling, a reasonably comfortable ride, and generous interior room. Plus, it employs an 800-volt architecture that allows for rapid DC fast-charging in public places, which can reduce charging times on trips..."
 
Bouldergramp said:
Introduction in June Consumers Reports:
"Hyundai Ioniq 5
ELECTRIC SUVs
The Most Sensible EV So Far
ROAD TEST
80 OVERALL SCORE
THE ALL-NEW, ALL-ELECTRIC Ioniq 5 is one of the most impressive EVs we've tested, with punchy acceleration, agile handling, a reasonably comfortable ride, and generous interior room. Plus, it employs an 800-volt architecture that allows for rapid DC fast-charging in public places, which can reduce charging times on trips..."

::sigh::

GRA can write for CR
 
Out of spec motoring just had a 820 mile race between Taycan, Ionic, MX, M3, and a MachE. Lots to debate on charging strategy and luck, but the Tsycan and Ionic did come out 1 and 2. With the rapidly expanding ccs network, Tesla (for some routes) is no longer the fastest option for road trips.
 
I saw that! Yes the second episode came out over the weekend. I thought for sure the model X would win, but it didn't. Even the Ioniq 5 ran into some charging issues a few times, so I don't think the run was perfect for anyone. And it still beat the model X. The model 3 did worse than it should have, but still, CCS came in 1-2. Tesla 3,4. And Ford with their horrible charging curve came in way way last, like over an hour behind the model 3. Kyle toasted everyone though.

I agree with GRA, I still want more range. I'd like the 20-80% to give me a real 3 full hours at freeway speeds. 4 hours would be ideal.

Still, I'd gladly take a current Ioniq 5 in trade for my 2018 Leaf. And I still might, but now I have to wait until October to get our air district rebate and see if dealers stop gouging.
 
I watched just enough to realize that the test was a one-off, that at least for the Tesla Model 3 it cannot be taken as anything approaching typical since the driver reported 2 Superchargers in a row that were defective. Was it this driver who forgot something and had to waste 30 minutes to return to the starting point ? Whomever it was, that should have been deducted from the final traveling time.

It was obvious that the drivers spanned from experienced (Kyle) to newb (the Model X driver). That makes a big difference.

The EA usage was a clown show in the parts I watched with Kyle. The 'plug & charge' feature made their attempts to charge worse than usual

I look forward to reading summary data since the real-ish time video was a mess, I'm sure related to juggling 5 cars.
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
C-rate is dependent on what individual cells can handle in terms of voltage and current, and is useful for comparing packs of similar voltage and chemistry. For a given chemistry, string more cells together in series and you don't have to put more current through them.

Put more cells in series, and notice what happens to the pack internal resistance.
I'm sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.


Sure, resistance increases, but since the cell limit is determined by max. voltage and current it's far easier to boost the rate of charge (or discharge) power by putting more cells in series. Which is why more and more companies, including Tesla, are opting for pack voltages well over 400V so they can charge faster, despite your previous adamant declarations that it made no sense to do so.

BTW, re pack pre-conditioning to maximize charging speeds, while I'm all in favor of it for edge cases I wonder just how much of an advantage this would amount to in the real world. Most people take extended road trips in summer, when the pack would normally be warm, and even if it doesn't start that way doing a FC repeatedly every two hours as is currently required by almost all BEVs with a nominal range of 250-300 miles would probably heat the pack up to where you'd want it. I look forward to some extended range road tests of the Ioniq 5/EV6 that involve repeated FCs, in both cool and warm temps.

Of course, for those longer trips in cooler weather, pre-conditioning should help. I once drove from Oakland to Flagstaff (slept there), then on to Albuquerque and up to Taos Ski Village (slept), then to Boulder and Rocky Mtn. N.P. (slept), Old Snowmass and on to Arches N.P. (slept), Zion and on to near Lone Pine (slept), then back to Oakland via Tioga Pass in October. I remember we got snowed on crossing either Tennessee of maybe it was Fremont pass (don't remember which highway we took) in Colorado from I-70 on the way to Leadville. OTOH, given the steep climbs and descents and/or sustained high speeds on that trip, I'm sure any pack would have been plenty warm from providing power/accepting regen.
 
The broad point is that the 800/900 volt charging curves largely offset the efficiency delta between the cars for road trips. I do agree that the 200 mile freeway range on the ionic5 is a bit disappointing. From what I have seen the ev6 is like 230 or so, just modestly better. I think 300 needs to be the minimum in good weather like the video. So 200 is doable in winter.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
The broad point is that the 800/900 volt charging curves largely offset the efficiency delta between the cars for road trips.

Hogwash. You have bought into the marketing.
The 'improved' charge curve is because Hyundai is tolerant of a higher C rate at higher SoC. Time will tell how much that affects battery degradation.
 
Agreed that it is way too soon to know what degradation will come with the high C rates at high SoC with both Taycan and and the Korean cars.

Same question for the Hummer. I have seen some check ins on Plugshare, so a few are getting into the wild.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Agreed that it is way too soon to know what degradation will come with the high C rates at high SoC with both Taycan and and the Korean cars.

At least the Taycan does give you the option of setting it to slower DCFC speeds (capping the maximum to only 200kW), which the option subtitle itself claims to "optimize" the life of the battery. AFAIK the I5/EV6 don't have this option.
 
skylitdriven said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Agreed that it is way too soon to know what degradation will come with the high C rates at high SoC with both Taycan and and the Korean cars.

At least the Taycan does give you the option of setting it to slower DCFC speeds (capping the maximum to only 200kW), which the option subtitle itself claims to "optimize" the life of the battery. AFAIK the I5/EV6 don't have this option.


Of course, you always have the option of charging it using a 400-500V '150kW' or lower charger instead of a 800-1,000V '350kW' charger, if you're more worried about long term degradation than reducing dwell/total travel time. But until BEVs can provide adequate range between charges while routinely FCing in 15 minutes or less (5 minutes preferred), they won't be full replacements for liquid-fueled ICEs.
 
GRA said:
skylitdriven said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Agreed that it is way too soon to know what degradation will come with the high C rates at high SoC with both Taycan and and the Korean cars.

At least the Taycan does give you the option of setting it to slower DCFC speeds (capping the maximum to only 200kW), which the option subtitle itself claims to "optimize" the life of the battery. AFAIK the I5/EV6 don't have this option.


Of course, you always have the option of charging it using a 400-500V '150kW' or lower charger instead of a 800-1,000V '350kW' charger, if you're more worried about long term degradation than reducing dwell/total travel time. But until BEVs can provide adequate range between charges while routinely FCing in 15 minutes or less (5 minutes preferred), they won't be full replacements for liquid-fueled ICEs.

I mean the Taycan has an option where the car itself can limit charging speed to 200kW, even if you use a 350kW charger.
 
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