Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

BeyondBeLeaf said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I would be perfectly ok with 200 mile range. What irritates me is the charge times. Give me a 200 mile range with the infrastructure in place to charge my battery in less than 30 minutes. Right now, I don't like that it takes about 6-8 hours for a full charge at my current charging station.

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I can say that our Tesla charges about 10 miles a minute between 10% and 50%, granted that is only 100 miles in 15 minutes (at highway speeds), but when road tripping you would be hard pressed to go to the bathroom grab a water or soda in 15 minutes.

frontrangeleaf said:

BeyondBeLeaf said:

OldManCan said:

I agree on some missing features. My pet peeve is the lacking of memory recall on motorized seat & mirror positions.

Having said that, I'm confused about the remark on cost. I believe one of LEAF selling points is the cost and it certainly is not in the 10K delta with Tesla range. I just priced a model Y and it comes to about $60K with the lowest cost build choices. Similarly a LEAF with lowest cost build choices come to about $30K and you still have various financial incentives ranging up to $10K depending on your state. So cost is nowhere near a Tesla. Maybe I got the comment above wrong.

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I must retract my statement, but not because you're right, but because we're both wrong. Also, I purchased the SL Premium, which MSRP'd just shy of $40K. A base model 3 goes for just over $40K (based on their websites, no markups that I've seen) https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview In all honesty, that price makes it even more difficult for me to justify the Leaf. Although, as I stated with my previous post, Nissan gave me better than market value for my Titan, so I figure it's almost negligible. About the only concern I have now is how the Leaf's resale value would measure up compared to the Tesla model 3's. I've heard Tesla has issues with panel gaps and other quality issues, but there's a lot of features for the similar money I paid for the Leaf. Oh well, I paid what I thought was fair and that's all I can say.

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Clearly, if the Tesla and the Leaf both sold at the same or nearly the same price after all incentives, i.e. actual out-the-door, wheels-over-the-curb price, then either the Tesla would be way under-priced, or the Leaf flat uncompetitive. However, to my knowledge, that is nowhere or almost nowhere the case, at least in the US.

We paid $27k before taxes and tags in 2019 for our SL+. At that price, it's a bargain. And many thousands less than the model 3's that were actually available at the time. I priced it against the Mazda 3 hatchback and the Corolla hatchback at the time, and it was in between the two. The Tesla 3 is a $50k car*, give or take, marketing and special considerations notwithstanding. It is also worth that in my view, but comparing MSRP figures is really misleading in these circumstances. The Leaf is currently priced to capture the incentives.

I fully expect Nissan to lower the price of the Leaf should federal incentives end. They already have for this year. They'll simply have to, barring some change in the market.

*I'm not inclined to consider vaporware. If the SR version isn't available for months and months, it isn't actually on sale. Tesla plays games making claims they may or may not ever honor. Not a $40k car unless I can take delivery on one for that price in less than 2 months or so.

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I'm speaking about my purchase, which was the SL Premium. It MSRP'd just a tick under $40K.

BrockWI said:

BeyondBeLeaf said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I would be perfectly ok with 200 mile range. What irritates me is the charge times. Give me a 200 mile range with the infrastructure in place to charge my battery in less than 30 minutes. Right now, I don't like that it takes about 6-8 hours for a full charge at my current charging station.

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I can say that out Tesla charges about 10 miles a minute between 10% and 50%, granted that is only 100 miles (at highway speeds), but when road tripping you would be hard pressed to go to the bathroom grab a water or soda in 15 minutes.

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Well my fiber intake could be better. :lol: I'd love for the infrastructure to be in place for these fast charging units. The only problem is that there is a lot of resistance (electricity pun) to installing these stations. The station that I have access to at home doesn't use the supercharger stations. I would be ok with charging overnight, but I don't like that the charging time is less than a good night's sleep (6 hour time). I almost wish that the Leaf gave me a slow charge option, but I guess that might be inconsiderate to other drivers. I actually plugged into a "fast charger" at a Nissan dealership a few weeks ago and was a little disappointed with how slow it charged. Oh well.

BeyondBeLeaf said:

I must retract my statement, but not because you're right, but because we're both wrong. Also, I purchased the SL Premium, which MSRP'd just shy of $40K. A base model 3 goes for just over $40K (based on their websites, no markups that I've seen) https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview In all honesty, that price makes it even more difficult for me to justify the Leaf. Although, as I stated with my previous post, Nissan gave me better than market value for my Titan, so I figure it's almost negligible. About the only concern I have now is how the Leaf's resale value would measure up compared to the Tesla model 3's. I've heard Tesla has issues with panel gaps and other quality issues, but there's a lot of features for the similar money I paid for the Leaf. Oh well, I paid what I thought was fair and that's all I can say.

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Cheapest Model 3 available to order now is $44,990 + $1,200 dest & doc fee = $46,190, not including tax, license and registration. ETA is Oct 2022.

Sales tax in my area is 9.375%. So, my guesstimate with sales tax, registration, license and fees somewhere above $51K.

Per pricing tab of https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/2022-nissan-leaf-press-kit, '22 Leaf SL Plus is $37,400 + $1,025 destination and handling charge. Per https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml, Leaf is still eligible for $7500 Federal tax credit while Tesla and GM are at $0.

So, not including sales tax, license and registration difference, the effective price delta of Leaf SL Plus at MSRP vs. cheapest 3 is over $15K. And, I'd be you won't be waiting until Oct 2022 for a Leaf.

The resale values of Tesla is pretty wonky for numerous reasons, but there's no guarantee they will stay high/elevated.

cwerdna said:

BeyondBeLeaf said:

I must retract my statement, but not because you're right, but because we're both wrong. Also, I purchased the SL Premium, which MSRP'd just shy of $40K. A base model 3 goes for just over $40K (based on their websites, no markups that I've seen) https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview In all honesty, that price makes it even more difficult for me to justify the Leaf. Although, as I stated with my previous post, Nissan gave me better than market value for my Titan, so I figure it's almost negligible. About the only concern I have now is how the Leaf's resale value would measure up compared to the Tesla model 3's. I've heard Tesla has issues with panel gaps and other quality issues, but there's a lot of features for the similar money I paid for the Leaf. Oh well, I paid what I thought was fair and that's all I can say.

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Cheapest Model 3 available to order now is $44,990 + $1,200 dest & doc fee = $46,190, not including tax, license and registration. ETA is Oct 2022.

Sales tax in my area is 9.375%. So, my guesstimate with sales tax, registration, license and fees somewhere above $51K.

Per pricing tab of https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/2022-nissan-leaf-press-kit, '22 Leaf SL Plus is $37,400 + $1,025 destination and handling charge. Per https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml, Leaf is still eligible for $7500 Federal tax credit while Tesla and GM are at $0.

So, not including sales tax, license and registration difference, the effective price delta of Leaf SL Plus at MSRP vs. cheapest 3 is over $15K. And, I'd be you won't be waiting until Oct 2022 for a Leaf.

The resale values of Tesla is pretty wonky for numerous reasons, but there's no guarantee they will stay high/elevated.

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I paid just over $41K out the door for my 22 SV+ back in Oct. so a $10K differential sounds about right. But I also get $2K back from CARB and $7.5K back from the Feds. That makes the Leaf about 40% cheaper than a Model 3 and it was actually available. Given my druthers, I would have rather had a Y even with the increased cost but I needed a car now, not a year from now. That said, the SV+ is more than adequate for my needs and the price differential was enough of an incentive to get me to buy it. I still don't trust Nissan but I've got a 8 year warranty on the battery just in case.

Lots of good discussion above on LEAF cost vs Tesla cost but it seems the comparison can never be on equal footing. It doesn't seem fair to take highest cost trim of LEAF and compare it to lowest cost Tesla and then say the difference is only 10K... Factoring like for like tiering (as much as possible) and state + federal incentives (~ $10K in favor of LEAF) presents a more realistic comparison.

Ultimately the bottom line comes down to vehicle availability for most of us who made the decision to get a LEAF recently. I needed a car, I wanted an EV, what I could get my hands on quickly was a LEAF. It was a blessing in disguise as it turned out to be a sweet financial deal and such a nice car to own and drive.

BeyondBeLeaf said:

Also, I purchased the SL Premium, which MSRP'd just shy of $40K. A base model 3 goes for just over $40K (based on their websites, no markups that I've seen)
...
I've heard Tesla has issues with panel gaps and other quality issues

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Don't forget that the LEAF has the $7500 Federal rebate in the U.S., and you can often negotiate the price (as well as other random Nissan incentives at times). There is no negotiation or markups on a Tesla car -- the price you see is the price.

In regular times, the LEAF ends up being much less expensive compared to the Model 3 - nearly half the price.

As for the panel gaps; that was a significant problem with early production on Model 3s. But you'll hear it mentioned on this forum nearly daily.

Why would anyone buy a Nissan Leaf right now? Because it's a great around-town car for the price if you live in a place where 'around town' means less than 100 miles a day. Which is a lot of people, IMHO.

Why not ask 'why would anyone buy a white car?' Or a red one? What ever happened to different strokes for different folks?

I guess I'm guilty of adding fuel to the fire under a dead horse - to mix a few metaphors - but I don't understand the un-ending back and forth about which type of EV is 'better'.

Agree, and I've been part of the problem with the dead horse too I guess.

You can't talk about "better or worse" unless you start from how you want to use the vehicle. That's how I see it anyway.

Model 3 vs Leaf+ for around town? For me at least, the Leaf, hands down. Over the road? Not so much. Towing my camper? Neither, thank you. It depends on how you want to use it.

danrjones said:

gcrouse said:

I'd still consider the 280 pretty realistic for anyone actually willing to consider an EV since that's about what my previous ICE car ranges were,

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Really? What were you driving?

My real world range on my outback is about 450 miles, at 75 mph. I can drive from my place to Flagstaff w/o a stop for gas, if I really had to.
I usually stop in Kingman for lunch and gas anyway, but the real world range of my ICE vehicles has always been 400 to even 500 miles, AT FREEWAY speed. Even my f150 can get about 380 miles at Freeway speeds (I have the standard tank), and I guarantee the Ford Lightning Extended Range won't come close to that.

I think we are quite a ways from reaching that equality in EVs, and while I don't know what the Lucid range is at freeway speeds, but I doubt it even hits 400 miles. And that's a sedan. I'm talking AWD and 4x4 SUVs and trucks.

Don't misread my words, I'm not saying we have to *have* EVs right now that hit those marks, but those are real world ICE ranges.

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It was a '92 Geo Prizm - to be fair i filled up pretty consistently at the 1/4 tank mark so 280-330 miles depending on how/where I was driving.

Sure - as a whole EV ranges lag behind ICE and you can go out and buy a 600 mile range Toyota Sienna hybrid but i think there needs to be a distinction between marketability and viability.

Assuming the absolute worst about winter range, 280 still puts someone in the realm of 140 miles of range in winter - which for most folks with the charging situation the way it is will be fine. The Alternative Fuels Corridor planning for the fed money going into build out specifies chargers every 50 miles along those corridors.

There's a distinction to be made between an actual road trip someone might take and the imaginary one to say "it won't work."

As an example - I'd love to go out to Yellowstone for a vacation at some point in the next few years - but it wouldn't objectively make sense to exclude vehicles for purchase for that theoretically possible trip since the cost difference between say a 2022 Nissan Leaf that meets my 99% usage cases and idk, a $60k 4wd SUV .

I could even sit there and say I need to trade in my leaf now for something because it's not possible for me to drive it from Illinois to New Hampshire for the 4 times a year i have to be out there for school.

My point as a whole is that the average commute hasn't drastically changed drastically since EVs have been introduced and the number shifting for plenty of people is more of a "I'm afraid of new technology" response than any rational exploration of vehicle needs.

Obviously vehicle needs vary between let's say Chicago and Montana and @SageBrush - to your point there's more of a legitimate range anxiety fear in the desert southwest where even in a gas car things can get sparse enough there's warnings about "Last Gas for xx miles."

IMO - 280 miles is the sweet spot and anything above 400 miles is as much as anything more about over marketing capabilities for people not sure where to research or afraid of adopting a new technology. From an environmental point of view, it seems like a waste of battery capacity.

Chalk up another reason that I'm glad I bought the Leaf. Went to fill up my new baby with premium and as I haven't filled up with anything but Costco gas in the past 6 months, I was shocked to see premium was over $4.12 a gallon (a full dollar more than Costco). I suspect that it's only going to get worse before it gets better, especially if more people start moving to EVs and gas/oil have no choice but to raise prices in an attempt to stay at the same profit levels. The way I see it, the Leaf is me hedging my bets when gas prices go nuts.

Only $4.12 a gallon? I wish it was that cheap in Vancouver, CA!

We just hit $5.50 USD per gallon equivalent ($1.85 CAD per liter) and another 10% increase is predicted over the next few months.

So glad to have a reliable EV as my primary commuter car.

Hopefully these price increases persuade more people to purchase EVs...

alozzy said:

We just hit $5.50 USD per gallon equivalent …

Hopefully these price increases persuade more people to purchase EVs...

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Ouch! I feel your pain. Lived in Victoria BC for sometime in the past and filling a V8 suv we had at the time was always a stinker.

Quite clearly, the economics should compel many towards the EV. Especially if they can charge at home at low rates. My pre-EV vehicle was an old F150 and the gas cost avoided each month I drive over 1500 miles saves me more than $500 which therefore covers my monthly loan (0% APR) payments. So technically my LEAF is free.

My EV purchase is a very similar story...

I used to drive a Hyundai Santa Fe and we typically spent $450 CAD per month on gas (more, if maintenance is included). I paid $10k CAD in cash for my 2013 LEAF SV in January of 2017 (purchased in Seattle for just under $8k USD, then imported it myself to Canada).

Although I didn't take a loan, loan payments would have been about $200 CAD monthly so net savings of about $250 CAD vs running the Santa Fe. Absolute no brainer...

In effect, the LEAF paid me to own it! I doubt I will ever get that kind of deal again, as I timed the currency exchange and used car market pricing perfectly at that time.

I look at current used car prices in Washington State and it's such a bummer. I would love to upgrade to a 2018/2019 Leaf with a 40 kWh pack, but the used car pricing is just stupid right now.

Leaf and the Bolt are on my short list for a car this year. If you get on the forums, the leaf and the Bolt seem to have the fewest problems of the various Evs. I think I prefer the leaf. Except for the chademo charging. I would probably only need DC charging a few times a year. So not really a big deal. Hoping prices relax a bit later in the year

Leaf supplies have improved by us in Chicagoland. You might be able to get one for msrp again.

Just saw this about Euro LEAF 2022 - Seems like there is no move from Chademo to CCS which doesn't surprise me.

https://insideevs.com/news/569517/2022-nissan-leaf-europe-refresh/?adv=0&fbclid=IwAR0ytsjmvI0BbdjR6qcHEdyzdV4QLKczFAhRzJ1ck4Tr73I577TwYfHbSh0

In response to “shark” et al ,
I drove a Bolt for two years but gave it up due to all the BS through their forever recall: years down the list for me..
I didn’t consider the Leaf at the time due to the bad press of rapidgate and such. Well, 600,000 units w/o any catastrophic failures speaks volumes now. Additionally, I rarely used quick chargers and always charge at home.
Chademo chargers are still abundant on the west coast if needed. Even over the mountain passes here in OR.
Finally, my ‘21 S+ has all the stuff I actually need and use with regularity and it drives so much nicer than the Bolt!! 8500 mi and 98% SOH. I don’t worry about degradation or even the kWs the resistance heater draws. I just drive it.

New rims though!

Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

Hmmm... At the risk of stating the obvious...