WetEV said:
GRA said:
Subsidies have mostly helped the well-off buy cars that most people can't afford, while the rate of adoption remains low because consumers are concerned about too-high prices, lack of charging, and operational inadequacy.
Ignoring several important facts.
Everybody breathes. Cleaner air benefits everyone.
Everybody breathes? Thank you, Captain Obvious. The issue is whether subsidising the well-off is the most cost-effective way to achieve cleaner air. Who do you think has to breathe dirtier air, the people at the top or bottom of the income spread? The people at the lower end, because they live closer to freeways, ports & rail lines, and their cars are older, in worse shape and lack more recent emissions controls.
Who actually gets the subsidies? There was a study a few years back of who was getting the California state rebates. IIRR, something like 70% were going to Tesla buyers (this was before the Model 3), with average incomes well into six figures. We subsequently decreased the max income levels a bit, to
only $150k filing singly/$300k married (2020 CA Median household income $75,235), and imposed a price cap for the first time. Prior to that, if
you lived here you probably would have been able to get state money as well as federal tax credits for buying your what, $75,795 base e-Tron? At least Washington state decided not to allow that when they did the right thing and established a $35k price cap years ago.
As it happens, the CVRP is currently out of funds, with people on a waitlist. I wonder what the income distribution is now, and how much of that money went to people who didn't need it and never should have been allowed to qualify for it?
But not to worry - in addition to the CVRP, California also has the Clean Fuel Rewards program worth up to an additional $1,500, to which neither income or price caps apply. So go ahead and order that Bentley Bentayga PHEV, if you find yourself scrambling for loose change under the sofa cushions because you just can't bear the thought of sharing an e-Tron or Model X with the hoi polloi, and even the thought of the base model Bentayga for a mere $160,000 (how common!) gives you indigestion, when you can option one out to well over $200k and maybe even $300k with a little effort. That $1,500 will probably buy you a crystal cupholder or some such essential bauble.
Am I alone in finding this obscene?
WetEV said:
Everything changes with time. Specifically, as the number of batteries manufactured increases the cost falls. Someone has to buy the first packs at a higher price to drive the price down.
Of course someone has to buy them at a higher price, and that's the wealthy who can afford it. I don't recall anyone suggesting government subsidies for personal computers, cell phones or flat screen TVs when they were new and expensive.
WetEV said:
GRA said:
I don't care if you call them Pigovian or Pigs at the Trough,
Named after a person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Cecil_Pigou
Yes, I know.
WetEV said:
Did you pass sixth grade?
Why, yes, I did. I'm assuming you did also. With that settled, back on topic.
WetEV said:
https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Pigouvian_subsidy
The largest subsidy distorting the market is the free dumping of toxins by internal combustion engines. Sickening and killing people.
Subsidizing PHEVs and BEVs at the level to offset that subsidy for ICE is basically the same as a tax on the pollution. Sure, there are differences. The carrot rather than the stick.
It's my contention that the carrot alone has been inadequately effective, and is less effective than the stick alone or, if you insist, both. Are you contending that higher fuel prices, congestion/ULEV zones and stronger government mandates are irrelevant to the higher adoption rates of HEVs/PHEVs/BEVs in Europe, compared to here? After all, HEV sales in the U.S. peaked at 3.19% in 2013. Europe's currently at 18.4%. They also outdo us on PEV adoption rates. Most EU countries do offer fairly high subsidies. Do you think those alone explain the difference?
Although the administration is against it, I'm slightly encouraged that the Problem Solvers caucus in Congress has suggested raising the federal gas tax to help pay for the Infrastructure plan:
https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject....x-increase-to-fund-infrastructure-11619188415
WetEV said:
GRA said:
How is that not relevant to the question you asked?
Off topic. This topic is PHEVs.
I was replying to a specific question of yours, in this very topic.