I agree that in 2015 (but not 2016 or 2017, except for the 2016 Lizard pack) and again from 2018 on, the Leaf's passively cooled packs are fine for any climate that isn't quite Hot. The big asterisk here, though, is the Rapidgate issue, which doesn't affect people like me. Rather than restrict the sale of Leafs, or force Nissan to stop selling them altogether, what is needed is a clear message to the public that not all vehicles are suited to all locales.
Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf
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alozzy
Well-known member
GerryAZ said:
It might sound like Nissan bashing, but I frankly expected and hoped for so much more from Nissan. As a market pioneer of lithium ion based EVs, Nissan could have continued to innovate, to stay ahead of the competition, and to be the market leader to which all other EV manufacturers are compared. Instead, they were passive - like their batteries! :lol:
Bottom line, owners have a right to expect a car to be able to perform well under all "normal" conditions. For those in hot climates, that means the pack shouldn't excessively overheat and the DC charging rate shouldn't drop to single digit kW. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation of any EV manufacturer. Nissan can do better with the LEAF, they choose not to...
Tricky question. As Cwerdna is fond of pointing out, the Bay area has micro-climates that vary by 20F. Should CA ban the LEAF because of a hot micro-climate ? Is 80F OK, but 81F verboten ? I live in the foothills of Albuquerque in the "hot" Southwest USA at 6300 feet elevation. A couple miles away and 1000 feet lower elevation is is ~ 4F hotter year round. Where shall the Gov set the illegal to sell sign ? I don't think your suggestion, no matter how well-meaning, is viable.alozzy said:
How about mandating a better and longer degradation warranty ? Maybe, but even well intentioned Tesla did not have a degradation warranty at all up until recently, and it is a puny one now. I suspect that the base issue is that the manufacturer does not want to incentivize owner abuse of the car.
For these reasons, I am most in favor of mandated disclosure. At a minimum Nissan should prominently report on the window sticker that the pack is passively cooled. I would not let Nissan promote 2 DCFC sessions before pack over-heating unless the test is in 90F weather and a 20 - 80 SoC change (or more) each charge. I mention Nissan here, but disclosure regulations should be performance based for all EVs.
knightmb
Well-known member
I agree with the spirit of it, but Nissan isn't the only one with battery overheating issues. That's why I would rather have people vote with their wallets. 
alozzy said:
This thread focuses on rapid-gating but cold-gating can be every bit as performance dropping, and it affects every EV manufacturer not named Tesla.
This comes down to the fact that EVs have their own set of trade-offs and quirks. Disclosure Regs have yet to catch up.
This comes down to the fact that EVs have their own set of trade-offs and quirks. Disclosure Regs have yet to catch up.
The EPA needs to come up with a simple, easy to understand rating system for an EV's ability to deal with extreme climates. It could range from something like "C" (cold climates ok, warm to hot ones not) to "B" (OK for most climates, but avoid Hot ones) to "A" (full thermal management of battery, full suite of Winter comfort and range enhancements like heatpump and heated seats/steering wheel). A typical Tesla would get "A-" for having everything except the complete set of comfort features, a typical Leaf would get a "B" and a Bolt would get an "A" when fully equipped. They could also have Cutesy icons like a smiling Sun and a frowning ice cube.
cwerdna
Well-known member
It's actually a lot more than 20 F. One of the more extreme cases I pointed out is at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=533224#p533224 with a high temp difference of 49 F in the same day. 111 F in Dublin vs. 62 F in SF. Those two places are only 35 miles apart by car.SageBrush said:
In summer, places like SF, Half Moon Bay and Pacifica (all next to the Pacific Ocean) stay cool whereas places like south San Jose and Gilroy tend to be hotter while Concord, Walnut Creek, Livermore, Antioch, Dublin (as examples) get really hot.
alozzy
Well-known member
There are going to be hot days over the course of a summer in a lot of places - hot enough to cause the LEAF pack to get too hot to perform properly on those days. That's acceptable.
What's not acceptable is selling a LEAF to someone who lives in a desert climate, where most of the summer days are around 100F or more, without making then aware that the battery will degrade much faster over time and that the car will not perform optimally when the pack overheats.
Coming up with a formula to define "too hot" is challenging for sure, but one option would be a threshold for the historical average number of days where the temperature exceeds 100F. That could be easily represented on the sales sticker as a color coded bar graph. For example, 0-5 days gets green bars, 5-10 days gets yellow bars, anything over 10 gets red bars. A legend for the color coding could explain more details:
Or something similar
I'll concede that buyer awareness is a better objective than outright bans, but any buyer awareness initiatives should be government mandated, using standardized labeling and wording
What's not acceptable is selling a LEAF to someone who lives in a desert climate, where most of the summer days are around 100F or more, without making then aware that the battery will degrade much faster over time and that the car will not perform optimally when the pack overheats.
Coming up with a formula to define "too hot" is challenging for sure, but one option would be a threshold for the historical average number of days where the temperature exceeds 100F. That could be easily represented on the sales sticker as a color coded bar graph. For example, 0-5 days gets green bars, 5-10 days gets yellow bars, anything over 10 gets red bars. A legend for the color coding could explain more details:
- Green = your EV's performance should not be adversely affected by overheating in your climate
- Yellow = your EV's performance will likely be occasionally affected by overheating in your climate
- Red = your EVs performance will be adversely affected by overheating on a regular basis in your climate
Or something similar
I'll concede that buyer awareness is a better objective than outright bans, but any buyer awareness initiatives should be government mandated, using standardized labeling and wording
The problem is that daily highs aren't the sole issue. If the nights are then cool, the packs can cool down. Places like Hawaii, where the daytime highs aren't extreme but the nights are also warm, thus keeping the packs hot, are harder on EV batteries than are high desert climates.
alozzy
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
True for degradation, but the article the OP referred to discusses the rapidgate issues as a sore point. A new owner of a LEAF, living in a hot climate, is going to find out about that my much sooner than battery degradation (unless the owner has enough interest to read forums like these, and starts delving into LeafSpy too).
As we all know, rapidgate has taken a lot of new buyers by surprise.
That might be true but my 2011 was in the PNW from 2011-2015 before moving it to Hawaii. I might have done 3-4 quick charges in the PNW, none in Hawaii. I have 5 bars left and still only have 38,000 miles. Outside of the $hit battery, car has been dependable. Nissan released this car way before it knew its battery limitations. Last Nissan or electric car I will buy.
LeftieBiker said:
GRA
Well-known member
That strikes me as a huge overreaction. The LEAF's design choices make it poorly suited to extreme climates, and since I'm often in one or the other I ruled it or any BEV not having an active TMS (with any current batteries) out years ago. But if the LEAF's original capabilities met your needs, then a BEV with a properly-designed TMS (and a warranty to guarantee that) should be fine, so I don't understand why you'd rule out any EV.
I am kind of going the other way in my thinking on vehicles. I understood that there were limitations but I took the leap of faith hoping that Nissan would not screw me over. Fool me once.
At 62 years of age and living quite comfortably here in Kailua Kona, I have come to the realization that before I die an EV will be my only choice. I see the train a coming. To that effect I am an all gas family. Looking to buy a new Corvette or an Audi R8. I can afford them and the costs associated with them. There is something special about a V8 in the Corvette or the V10 in the R8 that an EV any EV can't match IMHO.
I do not want to just hear wind and tire traction noises when I drive. I want to feel the roar and the vibrations that only an ICE car can give.
Background, I have been a Motorhead my whole life. Love racing for many of the same reasons listed above. Formula E just does not do it for me, too quiet. Had an epiphany at the NHRA Nationals in Las Vegas In Oct. 2019 with my daughter and son in law. The first pass of the Top Fuel
race was awesome, 2 11,000 hp Top Fuel funny cars really rocked our world. 1000 yards in 3.8 seconds at 328mph. You could feel the noise and vibration running through every bone in your body. We looked at each other and could not believe we experienced that.
Like I said, I will eventually be forced to buy an EV when nothing else is available. So I am enjoying what is left of being a Motorhead.
At 62 years of age and living quite comfortably here in Kailua Kona, I have come to the realization that before I die an EV will be my only choice. I see the train a coming. To that effect I am an all gas family. Looking to buy a new Corvette or an Audi R8. I can afford them and the costs associated with them. There is something special about a V8 in the Corvette or the V10 in the R8 that an EV any EV can't match IMHO.
I do not want to just hear wind and tire traction noises when I drive. I want to feel the roar and the vibrations that only an ICE car can give.
Background, I have been a Motorhead my whole life. Love racing for many of the same reasons listed above. Formula E just does not do it for me, too quiet. Had an epiphany at the NHRA Nationals in Las Vegas In Oct. 2019 with my daughter and son in law. The first pass of the Top Fuel
race was awesome, 2 11,000 hp Top Fuel funny cars really rocked our world. 1000 yards in 3.8 seconds at 328mph. You could feel the noise and vibration running through every bone in your body. We looked at each other and could not believe we experienced that.
Like I said, I will eventually be forced to buy an EV when nothing else is available. So I am enjoying what is left of being a Motorhead.
GRA said:
GRA
Well-known member
downeykp said:
I understand where you're coming from, as we're much the same age. I've owned and prefer to drive sticks all my life, and when I finally make the switch to a ZEV my biggest regret will be that I'll probably never get to drive a car with a clutch again. Which is one reason why I want controllable Regen on either a 'gear' selector or via paddle(s), to keep me engaged when the road gets interesting. Cruising the interstate, Level 4/5 autonomy can't come soon enough! :lol:
As to the noise & vibration of ICE racing, I hear you, or at least I did back before I lost my hearing. Although I was never a big racing fan, back in the '70s my dad had a girlfriend whose son raced 911s and 914s, and we went to watch him at Sears Point once. As you say, standing right next to the pits or by the track is a visceral experience, you don't so much hear the sound as feel it. I've always felt that Formula E just wouldn't catch on for the reason you state - it's kind of like watching full-scale slot cars
As far as noise in regular driving goes that's almost a non-issue for me now, as I can render any car silent by turning my hearing aids off. Even with them on it's not as if EVs are automatically quieter, as the engine noise often covers up wind and tire noise. IIRR, one of the car mags (probably C&D) tested a Model 3 and noted its relatively high noise level. Whether that was due to the motor, wind and/or tires, or poor QC on panels, wndows or weatherstripping I couldn't say. I do know that when I drove a Think Citi back in the late '90s it had a motor whine just like electric golf carts, which got annoying after 15 minutes and really irritating after 30.
My biggest problem now is the source of car noise doesn't matter, any of it will make it difficult or impossible to understand anyone speaking while I'm driving. EVs may have an advantage in that they have fewer sources to silence, but they're not inherently quieter once you get to a certain level.
knightmb
Well-known member
Both of those are easy to simulate with speakers, but I'm just being snarkydowneykp said:
Ford is already trying to do this with the Mach E by doing just that, simulating the engine noses/vibration inside the cabin with an option to turn it on or off on the display. Knowing that it was fake, even if it sounded and felt the same probably would distract from the experience I imagine.
For quite a few years now, some auto manufacturers are piping simulated engine roar into the cabins... of ICE sports cars.
jlsoaz
Well-known member
downeykp said:
Thank you for posting this. Somewhere I have a video of me pestering a Nissan rep in 2010, from a passenger seat, before the Leaf was available on the market, and part of it is pestering them about the battery warranty. Nissan didn't fully get the matter, but many of us in the industry knew their approach might turn into a problem. And given the learning they had already done with previous lithium ion battery cars, they probably should have known a bit better.
Calling Nissan out for the bad, along with the good, of early experiences, especially where we have sacrificed our own money, is I think fair, and does not amount to gratuitous Nissan "bashing".
jlsoaz
Well-known member
alozzy said:
Yup. I remember thinking around 2013 that I was more than a little skeptical of where things were going. While they were getting what were significant amounts of money every month from me, could they at least show a sign that they were aware that some customers really wanted bigger batteries .... and would be willing to pay for them.... and that some customers wanted a more thoughtful approach to preserving battery overall life? It's been an eight year wait, and at last in 2021 we will have the Ariya, but, for my money (literally) they took too long to get there.
jlsoaz
Well-known member
I can't help but wonder, as the years pass, and a few more Leafs get sold into Mexico (where Nissan has a very large market share in light duty vehicles), how will those batteries hold up? I don't know. Maybe they will be fine, but it seems like a very hot environment to try to find out. I wish we could get more testimonials here on this board from Mexicans driving Leafs there. Maybe there is an area for that and I am missing it. I don't speak Spanish, but if language is the issue, I could use google translate to read.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
There are a small, but growing number of gen 2 Leafs in Mexico. More youtube reviews have appeared in last year. I think they only sell the 40kWh in Mexico, and most of the sales are in Mexico City and Guadalajara.
Mexico city climate is much milder than other parts of Mexico. Once upon a time I traveled there often for work, and it's more like San Diego than Phoenix in terms of weather.
In 2013 when we took a family vacation to Mexico City, I was very excited to see a few Leafs in the Palanco area.
Mexico city climate is much milder than other parts of Mexico. Once upon a time I traveled there often for work, and it's more like San Diego than Phoenix in terms of weather.
In 2013 when we took a family vacation to Mexico City, I was very excited to see a few Leafs in the Palanco area.
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