2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Indeed! I have *never* quickcharged Auri (the name of my Leaf). I typically only charge about 1-2 times per week (based upon my limited usage), and I have never charged Auri when she was above 80% already charged. At work, she sits in a covered parking spot, and at home, she sits in the garage.

gillmj24 said:

Thanks good to know. Is the battery warranty 8 years, so assuming it was originally purchased some time in 2016 at the earliest, I would have at least until 2024? Didn't pull the trigger just yet, so I might lose it. Someone bought it and then likely returned it in their 7 day window.

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Just an update, I let the Carvana car go and am scheduled to pick up a 2 year lease 2020 SV on Monday. I'll post on the new owner thread afterwards assuming I didn't just jinx myself.

fergy126 said:

fergy126 said:

fergy126 said:

Thank you all for your input, I have scheduled my Warranty appointment for this weekend.

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Warranty replacement was approved, waiting on the battery to arrive at the dealership. I was told it would arrive in the middle of next week.

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Received a call today that "batteries are on back-order" and would receive a shipment update around the 30th of December. The wait continues.

Meanwhile with the cold temps (35-45 degF) have made completing my commute (45 mi) a struggle, I think I will have to drive my ICE vehicle until the replacement is completed.

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My warranty replacement was completed last Wednesday (12/23). I received a 40kwh battery with a SOH of 99 and 12 bars. I haven't charged to 100% yet haven't needed the extra range. VERY happy with the new life of the vehicle. The invoice was a little above $13,000 they wouldn't give me a copy but glad it was $0 out of pocket for me. Now I need to determine the proper techniques to maintaing the life of the new battery.

Try to keep the charge below 80% unless you need the full range, don't charge when you see 7 or more temp bars on the dash, and try to never let it sit at 100% charge for more than a few hours - especially in Summer.

LeftieBiker said:

Try to keep the charge below 80% unless you need the full range, don't charge when you see 7 or more temp bars on the dash, and try to never let it sit at 100% charge for more than a few hours - especially in Summer.

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You sir clearly do not live in the desert

This time of the year (the coldest), in the morning (the coldest part of the day), I think the car starts with 4-5 temps bars on the dash.

I've never gone into the red temp bars, but I have gone to the one just below the red. Just in normal Phoenix summer driving.

I wasn't trying to tailor my advice to your case, but I can: charge only very late at night or in the morning, and never to 100% unless you will be driving away within and hour or two of the charge finishing. Park the car in shade when it isn't garaged at night. If the garage gets hot at night, park the car outside after sunset. If no garage and the car is ever home in the daytime, I suggest a carport - preferably on the North side of your dwelling.

LeftieBiker said:

If the garage gets hot at night, park the car outside after sunset.

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I do all of that. In the summertime, I charge between 11pm and 5am (on days when I need to charge). BUT- In the summertime in Phoenix, the lows can easily be in the 90s at night (the average low temp is 84, which is the temp immediately before sunrise at 4-something-ish AM).

So, outside vs inside-the-garage is not really much of a difference (from an overnight perspective, since the House is A/C cooled but the garage is not).

And in winter: I get the snowflake-it-is-cold-outside icon to show on my morning dash.... maybe once per year. Sometimes twice: only If there is a big arctic blast.

fergy126 said:

fergy126 said:

fergy126 said:

Warranty replacement was approved, waiting on the battery to arrive at the dealership. I was told it would arrive in the middle of next week.

Click to expand...

Received a call today that "batteries are on back-order" and would receive a shipment update around the 30th of December. The wait continues.

Meanwhile with the cold temps (35-45 degF) have made completing my commute (45 mi) a struggle, I think I will have to drive my ICE vehicle until the replacement is completed.

Click to expand...

My warranty replacement was completed last Wednesday (12/23). I received a 40kwh battery with a SOH of 99 and 12 bars. I haven't charged to 100% yet haven't needed the extra range. VERY happy with the new life of the vehicle. The invoice was a little above $13,000 they wouldn't give me a copy but glad it was $0 out of pocket for me. Now I need to determine the proper techniques to maintaing the life of the new battery.

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You're in GA, so everything that Leftie wrote and park in the shade should be enough. Basically, avoid heat and avoid staying fully charged when possible. sometimes life throws curveballs at you, in which case don't sweat it. You should be able to get many miles out of it before you need another new battery and by then even bigger ones would be available. Battery recycling companies are sprouting all over, so the ecological damage of "discarding" your old batteries would be significantly reduced.

Hi. this is just my third post since 2015 but I have spent several hours over the years reading other people's posts. Thanks for sharing your info and knowledge. Especially LefieBiker, cwerdna and DaveinOlyWA (and all the people who have given great advice over the years).

I currently have a 2017 Leaf SV with about 31k miles. I am down 2 bars on the battery. Leaf Spy stats - AHr=60.28 / SOH=75.84% / 2QCs & 1097 L1-L2s. I just scheduled my 3rd battery report which was probably due in Aug since that is the month I purchased the new car. The car is garage kept. I live in NC and trickle charge. The car has the updated firmware. I leased a 2014 for 3 years and didn't lose a bar so I didn't baby my 2017. With Covid, we have not driven it much this year.

My questions:
Will the battery report rat me out for occasionally charging to 100% and not driving it that day?
Could that affect the warranty?
Should I baby the battery now (not charge to 100%) or "keep up the good work" and expect a warranty replacement in the future?

Thanks

The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.

fergy126 said:

fergy126 said:

fergy126 said:

Warranty replacement was approved, waiting on the battery to arrive at the dealership. I was told it would arrive in the middle of next week.

Click to expand...

Received a call today that "batteries are on back-order" and would receive a shipment update around the 30th of December. The wait continues.

Meanwhile with the cold temps (35-45 degF) have made completing my commute (45 mi) a struggle, I think I will have to drive my ICE vehicle until the replacement is completed.

Click to expand...

My warranty replacement was completed last Wednesday (12/23). I received a 40kwh battery with a SOH of 99 and 12 bars. I haven't charged to 100% yet haven't needed the extra range. VERY happy with the new life of the vehicle. The invoice was a little above $13,000 they wouldn't give me a copy but glad it was $0 out of pocket for me. Now I need to determine the proper techniques to maintaing the life of the new battery.

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That's great news and congratulations. We bought our 2016 Leaf SL showing 22K miles / 9 bars Oct 2019. 5 weeks later at 24K miles we lost bar #4. We trailered and dropped off the car 30 Dec 2019 and drove it home 12 Feb 2020.

SOH on pick-up was 99.87% and lost 0.01% daily for 5 months. Taking the wife to work is two 30 mile trips daily so I started charging to 100% after each 30 trip to reduce max battery temperature rise. SOH dropped down to 0.01% every 3 days. I tried to never charge it until battery temperature was no greater than 10 F degrees over air temperature. Putting it on the charger at 11pm and leaving at 6am was typical.

SOH was 96.07% and SOC was at 89% when it was totaled first of Nov 2020 with 12K miles on the new 40 kWh pack.

A few weeks later we got the bent sheet metal and crushed condenser/radiator removed and took it for a 2 mile test at freeway speed to make sure it drove and handled well before buying a parts car. We got a parts car last week. SOH has been at 96.05% for the last month. We observed leaving the 12v battery was leading to SOH decline. Charging often and to 100% is our plan until Leaf Spy data calls for a charging protocol change.

Use Leaf Spy data to find the charging protocol that works best with your climate and usage.

Note lithium plating is most aggressive early on so as it slows so may the SOH rate of decline.

LeftieBiker said:

The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.

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I agree. Temperature (either overly cold or overly warm) is really the big enemy. Additionally, if nissan wanted you to only charge to 80%, they would have given you a way to enable that ability. People very often charge overnight, most chargers (even level 2 chargers) are dumb, and thus they provide electrons so long as the car wants more.

Just wanted to follow up on my post from a few months back. I took my car into one of the Nissan Dealers near me for the 45,000 mile check up (I live in the Salt Lake City, Utah area). I asked about doing the 'firmware upgrade' for the range and the service guy seems completely lost to what I was talking about. I explained what it was and that my SOH seems low (currently at 78.64%). He still seemed confused but said they'd do a battery inspection.

I also asked them to look into the fact that the Nissan Connect EV & Services app works maybe 20% of the time. I know that most people say it's crap but the guy I bought the car from said he used it all the time and I figured since I was there I should at least have them look into it. He didn't seem as confused by this request but I wonder if I gave the guy more than he could handle.

Well, anyway long story short they said they couldn't find anything wrong with the Connect app and said the only thing they could think of that might help the problem would be to replace the entire stereo system. The part starting at $2,000 not including labor. Which even he thought was too much money to spend. So I guess I'll just have to continue having the app only work once every 2 months.

But more annoyingly is I asked over the phone and when I went to pick up the car numerous times if they did the firmware upgrade and he seemed confused about what I was talking about every time. He said they did a "battery inspection" (which they charged me $80 for) and "everything is up to date and the battery looks great for the mileage. There are 11 bars left. We'd only be concerned if you had 8 bars left." The printed report had no information about results for a battery test or if a test was even performed. They basically looked at the dashboard and told me how many bars were there. Which I didn't need to pay $80 to figure out. I can also count the bars remaining on the dash.

So, I guess I'm wondering if I should start using another dealership? There are a fair amount of Leafs on the roads in SLC so I figured they'd be pretty knowledgeable but it seemed like this guy at least didn't know anything. Also, I still don't know if the firmware update has ever been performed. Is 11 bars at 78.64% accurate? When does the second bar generally drop?

Thanks to all.

snapple070 said:

Also, I still don't know if the firmware update has ever been performed.

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this was the original text I got from nissan:

Vehicle Identification Number (VIN): xxxxxxxxx

Nissan is committed to providing the highest levels of product safety, quality and customer satisfaction. With that in mind, we want to bring to your attention important information regarding a voluntary service campaign being conducted by Nissan to reprogram the 30 kWh Lithium-ion Battery Controller (LBC) on your Nissan LEAF vehicle.

REASON FOR SERVICE CAMPAIGN

The software used by the LBC miscalculates the driving range and the battery’s capacity level gauge, resulting in capacity and range being displayed lower than the actual amount. Nissan is releasing new software to customers to correct these parameters and provide an accurate representation of range and capacity.

WHAT NISSAN WILL DO

To ensure your continued satisfaction and confidence in your car, your Nissan dealer will reprogram the 30 kWh LBC with updated software to correct the calculation for the driving range and Lithium-ion battery capacity gauge indicators. This procedure will be performed at no cost to you for parts and labor. Additionally, this service should take less than one (1) hour to complete, but your Nissan dealer may require your vehicle for a longer period of time based upon their work schedule.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

Nissan encourages you to contact your LEAF certified Nissan dealer at your earliest convenience in order to arrange your appointment. To minimize any inconvenience to you, it is important that you have an appointment before bringing your vehicle to the dealer for service. Please bring this notice with you to your service appointment. Detailed instructions have been sent to your Nissan dealer.

If you have additional questions you may contact the Nissan LEAF Call Center: Nissan North America, Inc., P.O. Box 685003, Franklin, TN 37068-5003. The toll free number is 1-877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738): Option 4.

Thank you for providing us an opportunity to ensure ongoing satisfaction with your Nissan LEAF. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you.

snapple070 said:

Is 11 bars at 78.64% accurate? When does the second bar generally drop?

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I believe the first bar counts basically as 2 bars. So that is 15%. So you lose the first bar around 85% capacity left. Then it is like 7-8% for every additional capacity bar.

Thus, you might be close to losing your second bar.

In Arizona, I seem to be losing one bar a year, basically. Ive heard that the bar loss rate slows down as the car gets older. Your results may vary.

snapple070 said:

So, I guess I'm wondering if I should start using another dealership? There are a fair amount of Leafs on the roads in SLC so I figured they'd be pretty knowledgeable but it seemed like this guy at least didn't know anything. Also, I still don't know if the firmware update has ever been performed.

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Yes. Your dealer sounds incompetent.

Regarding the firmware upgrade for 30 kWh cars, See below:
https://insideevs.com/news/338528/update-nissan-has-software-fix-for-2016-17-leaf-30-kwh-battery-reporting-issues/
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10143139-9999.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10143483-9999.pdf

If service has a question, show them the latter two.

outerspaceguy said:

LeftieBiker said:

The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.

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I agree. Temperature (either overly cold or overly warm) is really the big enemy. Additionally, if nissan wanted you to only charge to 80%, they would have given you a way to enable that ability. People very often charge overnight, most chargers (even level 2 chargers) are dumb, and thus they provide electrons so long as the car wants more.

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'11 to '13 US market Leafs DID have an 80% limiter. It was removed on '14+ US market Leafs and remained around a bit longer in some other markets.

https://insideevs.com/news/317213/2013-nissan-leaf-rated-at-75-miles-but-84-miles-using-the-outgoing-2012-epa-ratings-system/
https://insideevs.com/news/320736/2014-nissan-leaf-mostly-unchanged-as-range-technically-moves-up-to-84-miles/

It sure seems likely that Nissan removed it to make the Leaf look more competitive vs. other sub-100 mile EPA range EVs in/around model year '14 since most of them didn't have any sort of limiters nor would they get hit by the penalty. 75 miles looked near bottom of the barrel in model year '14 while 84 miles looked was in the top 1/3rd or so. Supposedly, the gen 2 (2012 to 2014) Rav4 EV also got hit by the 80/100 averaging penalty since it had 2 charge fullness settings.

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=20629 is a guy in Ireland with a '15 Leaf which has the 80% limiter. Since it's not the US, they don't use EPA tests there.

LeftieBiker said:

The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.

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Thanks LeftyBiker. I got the report today and got all stars and doing fine. They quoted me $59 when I made the appointment then wanted $169 when I got there today. I was clear when I made the appointment that it was a Leaf and I wanted the battery report for the battery warranty. Not anything to do with 12volt battery. After some discussion they said they would do it for $99. I was there and didn’t feel like fighting more so told them go ahead. When I picked it up the said they honored the $59. But there was a $15 misc. caharge. Not worth fighting over and about what others seem to pay.

Anyway I’ll keep using the car as designed and maybe start quick charging occasionaly.

Nissan Dealer In Santa Rosa Cal, reprogrammed my car Without My Permission !
I was NOT happy about this. since I have experineced 24% reduction in SOH in only 10K miles
and lost one bar.. which magically was erased... along with 15% of the SOH degradatoin. POOF !

I think this is a scam.. and I want to know if anybody has had this "upgrade" reversed ?

There is no point in trying to get it undone, because Nissan requires that it have been done before they will replace a 30kwh pack under warranty. Don't worry, though: if you have a defective pack it will still lose capacity bars fast enough to easily get a warranty replacement - the warranty is 8 years. If the bars don't start dropping, then you have a good pack.

CaptLarry said:

Nissan Dealer In Santa Rosa Cal, reprogrammed my car Without My Permission !
I was NOT happy about this. since I have experineced 24% reduction in SOH in only 10K miles
and lost one bar.. which magically was erased... along with 15% of the SOH degradatoin. POOF !

I think this is a scam.. and I want to know if anybody has had this "upgrade" reversed ?

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As LeftieBiker pointed they did you a favor to get that required software update that computes the SOC more accurately per Nissan. Our 2016 SL lost the 4th bar at 24K miles in 2019 and the update had been applied around 18K. I have not seen a date for the Leaf to be discontinued in the 40 kWh version so they should keep making that battery until that day comes.