Battery Upgrades are very possible

Flyct said:

To be clear, kW is a unit of power. kWh is a unit of energy.,,,,,,,,,,,,,

In comparison, we've had some people who were confused and even became ummm.. agitated when people where trying to teach/correct him.

Click to expand...

cwerdna,

You need to let this go. We all know what one means even when Kw vs kWh is used. This is a car forum, not a science or English class. We see people miss-using words all the time but we understand. Some examples are Charger instead of ESEV, “there” vs “their”, “your” instead of “you’re” etc.

You would go crazy on some of the truck forums I frequent, where English sometimes seems like a 2nd language.

Click to expand...

I see I screwed up EVSE and stated ESEV. Now that really bothers me because I almost made it through 2020 without making any mistakes.

@alozzy and @cwerdna,

@alozzy:

That's really something. At the time, it didn't dawn upon me that purchasing the 62 kWh battery at $7500 with shipping was a good find in terms of price value. It felt like a lot of money! Note, there were three listed at the time on the site (and as I recall, all batteries under 5,000 miles). And the seller contacted me a couple of times to see if I wanted more.

Also, my installer (in Los Angeles area), offered me a 40 kWh battery at around $5k but I figured I would enjoy the extra range of the 62 kWh battery (and I do!).

Side note -- I'm thinking about converting my Ghia at some point; though it could be a 30 kWh will be enough; I have much research to do on that...

In terms of my costs:

$7500 62 kWh battery
$1300 installation
=========================
$8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro)

Some states / electric companies (i.e. CA / SCE) provide rebates for used EVs, so that might help some folks reduce that cost even more. In CA, the the current round of SCE rebate, to my knowledge finishes at the end of this year (2020).

cf. https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/ev/incentives/state-and-federal
and

https://cleanvehiclegrants.org/

Is there a mynissanleaf.com forum thread here that lists current / future (?) incentives within North America by state / province and utility so folks who want to go the route of purchasing an inexpensive used Leaf (i.e. $3k or less) can upgrade with these kinds of incentives?

@cwerdna:

What is the correct nomenclature for a battery with 62 kWh:

is it

a) 62kWh

or

b) 62 kWh

or?

I see you used the space between the two, is it optional?

Aloha

addendum 5/ 2021: Installer is MIA, doesn't answer the phone, has not physical address, though is taking new customers, you've been warned

jbsocdelica said:

@alozzy and @cwerdna,

@alozzy:

That's really something. At the time, it didn't dawn upon me that purchasing the 62 kWh battery at $7500 with shipping was a good find in terms of price value. It felt like a lot of money! Note, there were three listed at the time on the site (and as I recall, all batteries under 5,000 miles). And the seller contacted me a couple of times to see if I wanted more.

Also, Pavel, my installer (in Los Angeles area), offered me a 40 kWh battery at around $5k but I figured I would enjoy the extra range of the 62 kWh battery (and I do!).

Side note -- I'm thinking about converting my Ghia at some point; though it could be a 30 kWh will be enough; I have much research to do on that...

In terms of my costs:

$7500 62 kWh battery
$1300 installation
=========================
$8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro)

Some states / electric companies (i.e. CA / SCE) provide rebates for used EVs, so that might help some folks reduce that cost even more. In CA, the the current round of SCE rebate, to my knowledge finishes at the end of this year (2020).

cf. https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/ev/incentives/state-and-federal
and

https://cleanvehiclegrants.org/

Is there a mynissanleaf.com forum thread here that lists current / future (?) incentives within North America by state / province and utility so folks who want to go the route of purchasing an inexpensive used Leaf (i.e. $3k or less) can upgrade with these kinds of incentives?

@cwerdna:

What is the correct nomenclature for a battery with 62 kWh:

is it

a) 62kWh

or

b) 62 kWh

or?

I see you used the space between the two, is it optional?

Aloha

Click to expand...

"Accepted" abbreviations for kilowatt-hour;

kWh
KWH
kwhr

Each by rights, should have a dash between the w and h but is acceptable with or without.

@DaveinOlyWA

Very cool! Mahalo




"Accepted" abbreviations for kilowatt-hour;

kWh
KWH
kwhr

Each by rights, should have a dash between the w and h but is acceptable with or without."


Oh, and thanks for posting wiper part numbers from Honda. Been using Costco until now on both of the Leafs.


"
Driver: Honda 76622-STK-A02

Passenger: Honda 76632-STK-A02

Rear: Honda 76622-T7A-003"

Ok, the beater-mobile journey continues.

Today, I have my longboard on the racks. I'm not fully charged. Going to go on the 405 / 101 freeways (Los Angeles / Ventura County) with a 10' board, full well knowing, this will eat up battery life like a deranged hungry pacman on PCP.

Nonetheless in the interests of folly science, I'll keep all posted in terms of severe battery use on a 75 mile journey!

This is a sort of a proof of concept trial. That is, using the Leaf as any one would use their station wagon, i.e., full of stuff (surfboard, bikes, etc.). The idea is with these costs that will undoubtedly become even lower over time, the Leaf becomes the all around beater car to do anything in within a 150 mile range when totally loaded....

Oh, and if mileage disappears too rapidly, I can make some interior seat adjustments and just throw the board in the car (towel protecting front glass). Grok that, a 10' Longboard will fit in a 2011 Leaf. Cool beans, eh?


$7500 62 kWh battery
$1300 installation
=========================
$8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro)

+ $3k Used Leaf (2011-2014)

Total $11,800 (minus various incentives, i.e., state / provincial rebates)


The goal here is to demonstrate / encourage others, that if they buy an old Leaf (3k or under) and install battery, you've got a low maintenance / cost and fun car. Hmmmm.

https://i.ibb.co/SfVcFMc/loaded-up-leaf.jpg

https://ibb.co/QH00Z95

Also in reading about how some Tesla suspensions are failing under suspension loads, it's time for me to get back into suspension upgrade thinking. There is a thread here on the forum about that one (Muxan is supposed to write to me about what they have).


Aloha!

post script: had 80 miles left to play with, I think I started out with 189. So took a big hit in the 75 mile journey, and rode the slow lane some of the time... and at end of trip, did my typical 75 / 80 mph.

@jbsocdelica The Thule and surf rack adds so much versatility to your LEAF, have fun!

FWIW, there's a shop in Portland, OR (EV Rides: https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service) that would charge $12k to put a 62 kWh pack in my 2013 LEAF. So, like I mentioned before, you got a great deal! There's only one shop in Vancouver (Precision Auto) offering LEAF pack swaps and their prices aren't even worth mentioning...

DaveinOlyWA said:

"Accepted" abbreviations for kilowatt-hour;

kWh
KWH
kwhr

Click to expand...

The correct abbreviation is the first you stated, i.e. kWh. This is all standardised, but it seems that Americans aren't big on international standards, unless they made the standard.

A colleague of mine wrote an article explaining it all: How to tell a kilowatt hour from a kelvin week henry.

Each by rights, should have a dash between the w and h but is acceptable with or without.

Click to expand...

I don't believe that's true (but I'm willing to learn if I'm wrong there). Personally, I hate the dash to imply multiplication, since it's the symbol for subtraction. Better would be to use a dot, even better the middle dot: kW·h.

Edit: As for whether the value should be separated from the unit by a space, yes, that's correct English. But you should really use a narrow space, and the unit should not end up on a different line, so a narrow no-break space (U+202F) is ideal. I can't show an example, since this forum inexplicably seems to forbid most unicode characters.

jbsocdelica said:

is it
a) 62kWh
or
b) 62 kWh

Click to expand...

Would you prefer to read 11lbs or 11 lbs ?

coulomb said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

"Accepted" abbreviations for kilowatt-hour;

kWh
KWH
kwhr

Click to expand...

The correct abbreviation is the first you stated, i.e. kWh. This is all standardised, but it seems that Americans aren't big on international standards, unless they made the standard.

A colleague of mine wrote an article explaining it all: How to tell a kilowatt hour from a kelvin week henry.

Each by rights, should have a dash between the w and h but is acceptable with or without.

Click to expand...

I don't believe that's true (but I'm willing to learn if I'm wrong there). Personally, I hate the dash to imply multiplication, since it's the symbol for subtraction. Better would be to use a dot, even better the middle dot: kW·h.

Edit: As for whether the value should be separated from the unit by a space, yes, that's correct English. But you should really use a narrow space, and the unit should not end up on a different line, so a narrow no-break space (U+202F) is ideal. I can't show an example, since this forum inexplicably seems to forbid most unicode characters.

Click to expand...

So its the difference between ignoring "accepted" and semantics? The problem with that is our language is wholly defined by acceptance. A term is used, coined, distorted, and its meaning becomes common knowledge so its becomes the "officially acceptable" usage of the term, otherwise the dictionary wouldn't be edited EVERY year.

But that is only the beginning. Your kelvin week henry should be spelled out it as it is...weak. Context tells us the person who leads is not metallic.

There's a big difference between technical terms and natural language, and this is the crux of the confusion. Language is very fluid, context-sensitive and by extension it is quite hard to convey precise technical concepts compactly to an audience already familiar with those concepts. This is why jargon and by extension technical definitions exist; they abbreviate unwieldy concepts in natural language and/or things that natlang is not good at describing. A great example of how much natural language you need just to warn people about a hazard is the long-term nuclear radiation warning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-time_nuclear_waste_warning_messages

As a consequence, in natural language it is fine to **** up parts of sentences, because natural language is built to be redundant and contextual

In technical writing, it is extremely important to be precise, because it is already - essentially - an extreme abbreviation. The example of a KwH and kWh being decipherable with context is rare - almost any other piece of technical terminology will not be intelligible.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Your kelvin week henry should be spelled out it as it is...weak. Context tells us the person who leads is not metallic.

Click to expand...

You can't always use context, or be sure about context. A "fifty KW battery"... ok, obviously not a kelvin watt battery, but if we were just talking about fast charging, is this a battery of 50 kWh capacity, or a battery that can be charged at a maximum rate of 50 kW? Sometimes, it's genuinely hard to tell, and it takes extra effort to use more context to eliminate one or the other. But if I'm talking to Mux or cwerdna, I know they mean the latter, and their shift key came on a fraction too early.

coulomb said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Your kelvin week henry should be spelled out it as it is...weak. Context tells us the person who leads is not metallic.

Click to expand...

You can't always use context, or be sure about context. A "fifty KW battery"... ok, obviously not a kelvin watt battery, but if we were just talking about fast charging, is this a battery of 50 kWh capacity, or a battery that can be charged at a maximum rate of 50 kW? Sometimes, it's genuinely hard to tell, and it takes extra effort to use more context to eliminate one or the other. But if I'm talking to Mux or cwerdna, I know they mean the latter, and their shift key came on a fraction too early.

Click to expand...

In utility batteries, the charge/discharge rate is often what is specified. So might be specified as a 50 MW battery with two hours of capacity.

A 24 kW battery would make for a fairly slow car.

coulomb said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Your kelvin week henry should be spelled out it as it is...weak. Context tells us the person who leads is not metallic.

Click to expand...

You can't always use context, or be sure about context. A "fifty KW battery"... ok, obviously not a kelvin watt battery, but if we were just talking about fast charging, is this a battery of 50 kWh capacity, or a battery that can be charged at a maximum rate of 50 kW? Sometimes, it's genuinely hard to tell, and it takes extra effort to use more context to eliminate one or the other. But if I'm talking to Mux or cwerdna, I know they mean the latter, and their shift key came on a fraction too early.

Click to expand...

Ok, you are doing nothing more than inserting random terms associated with the context at hand. Just because "kw" and "kwh" look about the same does not mean they are synonyms. In NO version of language; accepted, defined or slang are the two terms interchangeable. Its like using the terms "acid" and "base" interchangeably and relying on context for people to know the difference.

Clear thinking is highly valued by those who have it or want it; and poo poo'd by those who prefer to hide their deficiency behind a facade of "laziness."

I can no more intentionally write kW when I mean kWh than I can intentionally write power when I mean energy unless for some reason I am playing the fool. If I am participating in information exchange then fools are dead weight.

Hi Folks;

While there has been vigorous conversation on kWh and variations (intended or otherwise - and personally, I really loved learning about the namesakes behind the units and other aspects, very cool!), as one of our purposes on this thread is to focus on the very good possibilities and I would think the advocacy of upgrading, I'm still wondering about If we have a mynissanleaf.com forum thread here that lists current / future (?) incentives within North America by state / province and utility so folks who want to go the route of purchasing an inexpensive used Leaf (i.e. $3k or less) can upgrade with these kinds of incentives?

This means that even down the road for someone who holds on to their 24 kWh Leaf, by having that dynamic information readily attainable, we are encouraging / facilitating that kind of recycling / upgrading (and fun to boot)!

To reiterate : my costs: were $7500 62 kWh battery + $1300 installation for about $8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro) before local incentives such as SCE in my case. For example, in some states / electric companies (i.e. CA / SCE) provide rebates for used EVs, and that might help some folks reduce that cost even more. In CA, the the current round of SCE rebate, to my knowledge finished last year (2020).

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng?gclid=Cj0KCQiA88X_BRDUARIsACVMYD-T8JD_xXqKqUbX5DCqSNK2zV52jxWsYDRtPL3iUQ_SMd2ILwr4bsQaAiZbEALw_wcB


https://greenlining.org/publications/2020/factsheets-californias-electric-vehicle-equity-incentive-and-mobility-programs/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA88X_BRDUARIsACVMYD8SMZd_lRLaxnr2S5ppMNyFk-Ih9dUSRKDu8gPEzGW8ypVjXGu1rKMaAmATEALw_wcB

https://cleanvehiclegrants.org/

https://www.electricdrive805.org/free-ev-ve-gratuito/

Aloha!

I know of no such topic, and I suggest that you start one. It would be very useful. Just copy the above post as the first post, if you like.

Thanks for that suggestion, I looked at the FAQ's and found:

:How do I create a new topic or post a reply?
To post a new topic in a forum, click "New Topic". To post a reply to a topic, click "Post Reply". You may need to register before you can post a message. A list of your permissions in each forum is available at the bottom of the forum and topic screens. Example: You can post new topics, You can post attachments, etc.:

But I don't see "New Topic" -- where might I look?

Mahalo

About 1/4 of the way down the page is the Board Index listing with "Battery Upgrades are very possible" in larger letters and the location of this topic just to the right of it. If you click on the part of it that says "Enhancements" you should then see, again about 1/4 of the way down the page, the posting window for 'New Topic'. If you can't see it then you may not have enough posts accumulated, yet.

jbsocdelica said:

But I don't see "New Topic" -- where might I look?

Click to expand...

This way works ...
1. Go to https://mynissanleaf.com/viewforum.php?f=27
Then

Yup, it worked, and here is my first 'new subject' post, Mahalo!

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&p=596592#p596592

Hi Folks;

I was thinking about relatively inexpensive upgrades costs for the Leaf and I organized my thinking along the following ideas:

1) Previous discussions here
2) Emerging costs saving ideas including rebates
3) Upgrade example
4) Categories of costs savings
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) In another subforum here:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=27600

I have found vigorous conversation on kWh and variations (intended or otherwise) (i.e. technical issues / nomenclature). Two outstanding figures in that forum are Daniel / Dala the Great (https://dalasevrepair.fi/) and Muxan (https://muxsan.com/English/index.html). I believe their work has helped fundamentally set the foundation for DYI upgrades and a growing cottage industry installers (ranging from mobile mechanics to full on EV battery replacement shops). Along those lines, as well, Evehanced (https://evsenhanced.com/services/hv-bat ... -upgrades/ ) has come out with some really cool tools to make battery pairing a snap, and in North America, EVRIDESLLC (https://evridesllc.com/) among others are also doing battery upgrades / enhancements on a professional level (with professional prices to boot).

Personally, in the other forum I referred to, I really loved learning about the namesakes behind the units and other aspects, very cool!). I think common to a number of sub forums a major purposes is to make this all doable, i.e. low / lower cost upgrades.

2) Maybe we can create a kind of an emerging / evolving database listing current / future (?) incentives within North America by state / province and utility so folks who want to go the route of purchasing an inexpensive used Leaf (i.e. $3k or less) can upgrade with these kinds of incentives.

It also means that even down the road for someone who is still holding on to their 24 kWh Leaf, by having that dynamic information readily attainable, we are encouraging / facilitating that kind of recycling / upgrading (and fun to boot)!

3) In my case for example in Southern California, I bought a 2011 6 bar Leaf last year for $3k and then added a 62 kWh battery upgrade.

After initial purchase, my costs were $7500 for a 62 kWh battery + $1300 installation (in Los Angeles) for about $8800 (U.S.) or €7200 (Euro) before local incentives such as SCE in my case (as well as buy back for part of my old battery back) kicked in.

For me, that made the vehicle a really good investment for the next 10 years, 230+ mileage range for well under 11k (with my incentives). At the moment, that strikes it about $4k under just buying a used Bolt -- which means it has its own sweet spot, I think. (In Los Angeles, for example, a Bolt can be had for starting about $15k + 10% tax).

Some states / electric companies (i.e. CA / SCE) may provide rebates for used EVs, and that might help some folks reduce that cost even more. In CA, the the current round of SCE rebate, to my knowledge finished last year (2020).

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng?gcli ... ZbEALw_wcB

https://greenlining.org/publications/20 ... ATEALw_wcB

https://cleanvehiclegrants.org/

https://www.electricdrive805.org/free-ev-ve-gratuito/

https://plugstar.zappyride.com/tools/incentives


Los Angeles County

https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/12312



Bay Area, California

https://www.baaqmd.gov/funding-and-ince ... nd-rebates

Burbank, California

https://www.burbankwaterandpower.com/co ... -ev-rebate

Pennsylvania

https://www.peninsulacleanenergy.com/dr ... delectric/

I also came across a sort of state listing which seems pretty promising for lots of EV resources, used and new :

https://clippercreek.com/ev-incentives/

4) Again pieces of the the main idea are :

a) Making the Leaf super affordable by way of any mechanism (rebates, low battery exchanges / upgrades, purchasing)
b) Keeping an eye out on great battery deals for the 62 kWh or 40 kWh (my local installer, gave me three sites at the time to look for purchasing. Then, I had the option of getting a 40 kWh battery for about $5500 (I'll have to check my notes), but I decided more range would better over the long term.

At the moment, http://www.advanceautosalvage.com/ is selling a 40 kWh for about $7k. They ship nationally.

And if you're really a go getter:

https://erepairables.com/salvage-cars-a ... issan/leaf


c) Giving folks the best strategies of when to buy a used one to take advantage of an 8 bar under warranty
d) Strategies for getting the 30 kwh battery upgraded for free
e) Engaging in preventative repair and cheap repair shops that are Leaf friendly
f) Understanding how to best sell the old pack to recoup some, if not all costs (or more!) of installation,
g) free / low cost charging (including cheap solar panel ideas) and
h) ? (anything along those lines to make the Leaf a budget friendly vehicle for many years to come)

So if you have an addons to this, I hope you'd be doing a service for a lot of folks who might not have known there were resources available for really low cost vehicle ownership over an extended period of time.

Aloha!

update: Installer is MIA, has several BBB complaints against him, he is still taking new customers but doesn't return calls (he has no voicemail nor address). Trouble, stay away!!!