Official Tesla Model Y Thread

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WetEV said:
lorenfb said:
LeftieBiker said:
I'll bet it uses the same steering rack as the Model 3.

Remember that most all vehicles presently are "drive-by-wire", which means that there's no mechanical connection from the steering
wheel to the steering rack. The system uses an ECU to drive a motor with feedback to control the ratio. This can provide for various
steering ratios, e.g. a sport mode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire#Steer_by_wire
The first production vehicle to implement this was the Infiniti Q50., but after negative comments they retrofitted the traditional hydraulic steering.

Is there any production car today that is steer by wire?
I knew about the Q50 going steer-by-wire long ago but didn't know that they went back to conventional... but it seems like they offered it (again) w/model year '18?

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/infinitis-drive-by-wire-system-gets-upgraded-in-2018-q50-red-sport-400
https://www.wardsauto.com/test-drives/18-infiniti-q50-shows-how-far-vehicle-engineering-has-come
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15091363/2018-infiniti-q50-first-drive-review/

I believe steer-by-wire is still the exception and not the norm in currently sold vehicles.
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
BTW, that's the second Mod Y review I've read that says the steering's too quick. 2 turns lock-to-lock for a top-heavy CUV makes no sense: 2.5 - 3 would seem to be more reasonable.
CUVs may be top-heavy in general but with the battery under the floor that isn't the case for most EVs, especially Teslas. The higher seating position may make drivers used to regular top-heavy CUVs feel uncomfortable but once they get used to the very low CG they may become accustomed to the flat EV handling on curves.


I was speaking in relative, not absolute terms when I mentioned top-heavy. The Model Y is definitely top-heavy compared to the 3, and C&D and others who've driven both mention the difference. The typical driver may never notice it, but people who tend to push their vehicles closer to the handling limits, which applies to C&D editors as well as most of their readers, will.
 
lorenfb said:
Each has his own basic meaning. The key point is what Tesla does, i.e. typically minimizing mechanical systems and maximizing firmware control.

As a professional firmware developer and amateur car mechanic I still prefer to have a mechanical link. Until and unless car manufacturers start using avionic level firmware development techniques I'll stick with the KISS principle.
 
^^^AFAIA, full steer by wire with no mechanical linkage remains illegal in the U.S. and most if not all other countries for passenger cars. As for KISS I'm with you, for this and driver assistance systems like "Autopilot". Give me a true SAE L4 or L5 system, or don't bother.
 
Mainly the wiki, which says:
This kind of system will provide steering control to a car with fewer mechanical components/linkages between the steering wheel and the wheels.[4] The control of the wheels' direction will be established through electric motor(s) which are actuated by electronic control units monitoring the steering wheel inputs from the driver. Such a system is illegal in most jurisdictions for passenger or commercial vehicles.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire#Steer_by_wire


There are also various discussions on tmc and elsewhere saying that laws would have to be changed to allow it. I haven't been able to find a reg, but haven't looked hard.

It's tenuous, but given the public's reluctance to trust their lives to automation, not to mention concerns about hacking, it seems likely there's still such a prohibition here.
 
It's tenuous, but given the public's reluctance to trust their lives to automation, not to mention concerns about hacking, it seems likely there's still such a prohibition here.

Cars with electric-assisted power steering units that are electronically linked to a CAN type setup can still be hacked, IIRC - it's been demonstrated. Think "Pro Pilot."
 
GRA said:
Mainly the wiki, which says:
This kind of system will provide steering control to a car with fewer mechanical components/linkages between the steering wheel and the wheels.[4] The control of the wheels' direction will be established through electric motor(s) which are actuated by electronic control units monitoring the steering wheel inputs from the driver. Such a system is illegal in most jurisdictions for passenger or commercial vehicles.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire#Steer_by_wire


There are also various discussions on tmc and elsewhere saying that laws would have to be changed to allow it. I haven't been able to find a reg, but haven't looked hard.

It's tenuous, but given the public's reluctance to trust their lives to automation, not to mention concerns about hacking, it seems likely there's still such a prohibition here.

Most should be aware that a similar system on ICEVs, i.e. full electronic control of the engine's throttle body (the accelerator pedal has no mechanical linkage), has been utilized for over 15 years for most all ICEVs. Hacking becomes extremely difficult when a subsystem ECU, e.g. electronic throttle where the throttle pedal potentiometers are hardwired to the throttle ECU and it operates under its own firmware.
 
lorenfb said:
GRA said:
Mainly the wiki, which says:
This kind of system will provide steering control to a car with fewer mechanical components/linkages between the steering wheel and the wheels.[4] The control of the wheels' direction will be established through electric motor(s) which are actuated by electronic control units monitoring the steering wheel inputs from the driver. Such a system is illegal in most jurisdictions for passenger or commercial vehicles.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire#Steer_by_wire


There are also various discussions on tmc and elsewhere saying that laws would have to be changed to allow it. I haven't been able to find a reg, but haven't looked hard.

It's tenuous, but given the public's reluctance to trust their lives to automation, not to mention concerns about hacking, it seems likely there's still such a prohibition here.

Most should be aware that a similar system on ICEVs, i.e. full electronic control of the engine's throttle body (the accelerator pedal has no mechanical linkage), has been utilized for over 15 years for most all ICEVs. Hacking becomes extremely difficult when a subsystem ECU, e.g. electronic throttle where the throttle pedal potentiometers are hardwired to the throttle ECU and it operates under its own firmware.


Quite so, but steer by wire seems to be much more restricted; you can always turn the power off to stop runaway accel. Re: steer by wire, the wiki goes on to say:

The first production vehicle to implement this was the Infiniti Q50.,[5] but after negative comments they retrofitted the traditional hydraulic steering.[6] Its implementation in road vehicles is limited by concerns over reliability although it has been demonstrated in several concept vehicles such as ThyssenKrupp Presta Steering's Mercedes-Benz Unimog, General Motors' Hy-wire and Sequel, Saabs Prometheus and the Mazda Ryuga. A rear wheel SbW system by Delphi called Quadrasteer is used on some pickup trucks but has had limited commercial success.

The Swedish startup Uniti will release the Uniti all electric car in 2019 with an in-house designed steer-by-wire system and will entirely replace the steering wheel.[7] The concept was showcased in VR at the 2016 CeBit edition.[8]


Also found this:
In currently used electric steering systems, the safe state will be the intended loss of assist (LOA) for preventing unintended self-steer or inappropriate vehicle lateral control, and the related studies give guidelines for fault-tolerant systems. Regulations regarding steering systems strictly demand the human driver can steer in the LOA condition. e.g., ECE R79. However, in a steer by wire system, there can be no mechanical coupling between the steering wheel and the steering mechanism, the motor-off can be the safe state no longer.


https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2020-01-0646/
 
GRA said:
...Quite so, but steer by wire seems to be much more restricted; you can always turn the power off to stop runaway accel...
That brings up the question of how one turns off a car, in an emergency, with a modern keyless entry system:

In an ICE car I haven't a clue.

In the case of an older LEAF, with a start button, I think holding it down would shut the car off, but it has been too many years since I drove one so I may not remember that right.

In a Tesla, shifting to neutral, disengages the accelerator pedal and I believe that holding down the park button engages emergency braking, although I couldn't find it in the manual. There is no "on/off" button or switch!
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
...Quite so, but steer by wire seems to be much more restricted; you can always turn the power off to stop runaway accel...
That brings up the question of how one turns off a car, in an emergency, with a modern keyless entry system:

In an ICE car I haven't a clue.

In the case of an older LEAF, with a start button, I think holding it down would shut the car off, but it has been too many years since I drove one so I may not remember that right.
IIRC, on Nissans, press and hold power button works along with rapidly pressing it several times.

On gen 2 Prius, you'd have to press and hold for a few seconds. Luscious Garage did this test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N22LLJsChA
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
...Quite so, but steer by wire seems to be much more restricted; you can always turn the power off to stop runaway accel...
That brings up the question of how one turns off a car, in an emergency, with a modern keyless entry system:

In an ICE car I haven't a clue.

In the case of an older LEAF, with a start button, I think holding it down would shut the car off, but it has been too many years since I drove one so I may not remember that right.

In a Tesla, shifting to neutral, disengages the accelerator pedal and I believe that holding down the park button engages emergency braking, although I couldn't find it in the manual. There is no "on/off" button or switch!


I have no personal experience of owning such a car, as my 2003 Forester still uses a key, not that I've unlocked the door with it except when I had a dead battery in the remote. But I have no doubt that it's required that you be able to shut the engine/power/accel off and set the brake by some means other than the remote, as your and cwerdna's examples show.
 
I agree the distinction could have been made better in some of the sources, but the point remains valid - you aren't
allowed to have a steering system that prevents you from steering a passenger car just because some electronic component has failed. It will take many years of experience with steer-by-wire systems in other applications before it's likely the regs will be changed to allow that, and even then there will likely be customer resistance. It make take the deployment of L5 vehicles.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
But to be fair, 2 out of 3 Tesla review are kind of guilty of the same.

“In spite of delivery with a few dozen panel gap issues, a tear in the seat fabric, cracked paint, and the trunk not latching, we’d still have to give the M3 a 5 out of 5 because we are driving the future”
Along these lines, was a post of https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/35696/the-2020-tesla-model-y-proves-how-far-behind-the-rest-of-the-auto-industry-still-is from the Electric Auto Association.

Title is "The 2020 Tesla Model Y Proves How Far Behind The Rest Of The Auto Industry Still Is
Say what you want about the panel gaps and the tweets, but everyone who's come at this king so far has missed."

I've only skimmed bits and pieces. But there are choice quotes like:
Then, finally, I despised Tesla for inflicting owners with an innumerable amount of post-sales issues, including notoriously poor quality control.

I don’t know what’s worse between a paint job that peels off during the first winter, or door handles that refuse to operate properly during a cool Canadian morning; don't even get me started on the infamous panel gaps.

This year, Tesla is back with its most important car possibly ever: the Model Y. It's priced to sell in the ultra-important, ultra-popular, ultra-lucrative midsize crossover segment, smaller and cheaper than a Model X and without those problematic Falcon Doors. Unlike wild experiments like the forthcoming Cybertruck—if that even happens as-is—the Model Y is meant to be a major volume-seller, the car that keeps the bills paid. But it also needs to still be a Tesla, meaning fast, high-tech and a cut above all other EVs, long as you check expectations about quality at the normally-opening door.

Yet will the 2020 Tesla Model Y being plagued with build quality issues affect its desirability? Perhaps not. Because here’s the cold hard truth about Tesla: whether we like it or not, it’s still ahead of the curve. Way ahead. And the more I drive Tesla's cars, the sadder I feel about the rest of the auto industry.
and
Come At Me, Muskbros

Before I move onto my driving impressions, I will say that I was just as disappointed by this thing’s overall build quality as the Model 3’s. Among the manufacturing issues I noticed on my tester, which I obtained through the Turo ride-sharing app, was a passenger-side headlight that wasn’t properly aligned, a rear bumper that didn’t quite tuck in the same way on both sides of the car, a rear hatch that had a wider door-to-body gap on one side than the other, and some rubber moldings that felt they had been installed as afterthoughts.

That the Model Y’s large center console is made out of cheap Dollarama-grade plastic is another huge letdown. Cabin noise was also very apparent during my drive, where squeaks and rattles kept disturbing the otherwise peaceful experience—it's all especially more noticeable with no engine to drown it out. The Model Y’s interior feels downright cheaply made, especially when you compare it to what the Germans or even the South-Koreans manufacture in this price bracket.
If you don't get the MuskBros comment, read https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-its-like-when-elon-musks-twitter-mob-comes-after-you which has some NSFW language in it.
 
I know I risk being labeled a troll by posting this, but does anyone else find it at least humorous, even if an effective solution (creative parts mgmt).

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grade-fake-wood
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
I know I risk being labeled a troll by posting this, but does anyone else find it at least humorous, even if an effective solution (creative parts mgmt).

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/tesla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grade-fake-wood
There are only a very small # of people here on MNL who might label you a troll for posting something like this...

On the other hand, if it were on TMC and you weren't a Tesla vehicle owner or the post didn't come from the board staff itself... oh boy...
 
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