Is the Leaf really a car before its time?

Agreed that Tesla made the right move there and quickly. How many Tesla 40s are actually left in the wild? I would be curious as their residual range.

Nissan should head hunt from one of the new EV start ups for its next head.

lorenfb said:

GaleHawkins said:

No question the Leaf has played a major role in showing the world EV's time has come. We know from posts here the Leaf has been behind the purchases of Bolt and Tesla EV's when people needed more range.

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Range hasn't helped the Bolt. Its sales are lackluster like the Leaf's. Yes, its features could be better, but not the key issue.

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Correct. The key issue was Chevy's less than lackluster support at launch, limited sales area, horrendous lease terms, complete ignorance of passenger comfort and a dealership that did all they could to sabotage the car.

Negating range; how many people do you know that preferred the Bolt over their LEAF?

Yeah, that should have been enough but moreso; how many people left LEAF and went elsewhere despite loving their LEAF? A ton and why? It was range so no matter what you got to say about Bolt and its truckload of issues; the range issue on the LEAF does not change.

I agree there. We tried the Bolt when it came out. In spite of great range for the money..just couldn’t do it. Ugly and uncomfortable. If they made it Tesla cool. Like a mini Vette, it could have sold like hot cakes.

Leaf has lost a lot of following for falling behind. It will take quite a new leader to turn it around. Else internal visionless business suits will kill whats left.

Leaf has lost a lot of following for falling behind.

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Only the battery has fallen behind. The Leaf remains the Gold Standard for affordable, comfortable EVs. When the other manufacturers figure out that a $50 heated steering wheel isn't something that should cost $4k in other, unwanted, "upgrades", and they make their long range EVs comfortable and user-friendly, that will be a historic day indeed.

I’m not convinced that the “average“ mainstream American has any interest whatsoever in driving a BEV.

I’ve spoken with dozens of people from a variety of lifestyles and interests. It’s not on their radar.

Lots of prejudice and misinformation to be sure. But more than anything no perceived benefit. As far as I can tell, BEVs are seen as a solution seeking a problem.

Drive a futuristic sports car? “Maybe, sure.” Drive an electric Corolla? “Shrug”.

Hopefully this will change. The Leaf and the Bolt and the others fail to make a compelling case to those buyers who are most interested in that segment. Until that changes, sales will lag in my opinion.

Outside of Tesla, there just hasn’t been advertising support or excitement. And the problems noted here with dealers just compound the issue.

Range anxiety is real, as is sticker shock. Our SL+ after incentives in Colorado was compelling. But that’s not the norm. Even bona fide Boulderites aren’t convinced.

We like our Leaf. A lot. Great little car. Lots of people here clearly don’t. I think that’s a shame. On the other hand, minus those incentives we’d still be on the sidelines watching and waiting.

In this sense I think the Leaf was a car before it’s time. Not quite there yet but closer than ever. Time will tell.

frontrangeleaf said:

As far as I can tell, BEVs are seen as a solution seeking a problem.

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Right. As I've noted before about a comparison between a smartphone and a BEV:

The smartphone fulfilled the need in search of a product. The BEV is a product in search of a need.

frontrangeleaf said:

I’m not convinced that the “average“ mainstream American has any interest whatsoever in driving a BEV.

I’ve spoken with dozens of people from a variety of lifestyles and interests. It’s not on their radar.

Lots of prejudice and misinformation to be sure. But more than anything no perceived benefit. As far as I can tell, BEVs are seen as a solution seeking a problem.

Drive a futuristic sports car? “Maybe, sure.” Drive an electric Corolla? “Shrug”.

Hopefully this will change. The Leaf and the Bolt and the others fail to make a compelling case to those buyers who are most interested in that segment. Until that changes, sales will lag in my opinion.

Outside of Tesla, there just hasn’t been advertising support or excitement. And the problems noted here with dealers just compound the issue.

Range anxiety is real, as is sticker shock. Our SL+ after incentives in Colorado was compelling. But that’s not the norm. Even bona fide Boulderites aren’t convinced.

We like our Leaf. A lot. Great little car. Lots of people here clearly don’t. I think that’s a shame. On the other hand, minus those incentives we’d still be on the sidelines watching and waiting.

In this sense I think the Leaf was a car before it’s time. Not quite there yet but closer than ever. Time will tell.

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In my part of the USA say from Memphis TN to Louisville KY the interest in EV's are very low today. Our 2016 Leaf is the first one many have seen and most would not know a fancy car with a T on each end came from Tesla. I do a lot of selling of the EV concept one on one but we are years away from customers coming in asking to test drive an EV. Now with Nissan exiting Europe and laying off corporate wide I think it is over for the Leaf. It does seem to be a car before time but Nissan did nothing that I have seen to promote the Leaf. Without advertising Tesla built an EV brand and created demand for a Tesla. I do not think most in upper management at Nissan is losing sleep over losing the Leaf but will try to save the Nissan brand even if it means pulling all the way back to Japan. Nissan has indicated downsizing plans will be ready by May 2020. We will see. If they come very late or never come it will be telling of the future I expect. Nissan is not out cash yet but do they have enough to buy some time to reorganize?

frontrangeleaf said:

I’m not convinced that the “average“ mainstream American has any interest whatsoever in driving a BEV.

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That is the norm and HIGHLY dependent on your location. I find this to VERY much NOT be the case in my area. Each location presents its own challenges especially in the area of personal transportation. I only need to travel 100 mile east to find a very different attitude towards plugs. Probably very similar to what you see.

Is this unusual? Hardly. If we examine trends thru out the past several decades we will see the coasts adopting them years or decades before flyover country.

frontrangeleaf said:

I’m not convinced that the “average“ mainstream American has any interest whatsoever in driving a BEV...Outside of Tesla, there just hasn’t been advertising support or excitement. And the problems noted here with dealers just compound the issue.

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I agree, based on what I see in the Piedmont area of NC from Charlotte to Greensboro. I see Teslas, and many more of them than LEAFs, and a few Volts now and then, but I've yet to see more than one Bolt in the wild around here so far, and none in dealerships despite requests to see one.

And for the record, Tesla does not advertise.

Any BEV only becomes compelling when it becomes cheaper to operate than a ICE. If you live in an area with cheap electricity or are on solar, you can make a case for it. At this point you have to own or rent a house and be able to charge at home. If you can't do that then charging costs at public stations will likely eat up the cost savings on fuel and maintenance. That leaves being green as the major reason to own a BEV. Most people aren't Kermit.

I do own my own home and generate over 90% of my power from an extensive solar array. I drive 18000 miles a year. A Leaf was a no-brainer for me. Compared to what I was driving before, the savings in gas nearly made the monthly payment. The only maintenance has been tires and a 12v battery. The lifespan of the traction battery has been the only real disappointment I've had with the car. I'll buy another BEV in a year or two but it won't be a Nissan. I drove Nissans for over 30 years but I won't buy another one.

Any BEV only becomes compelling when it becomes cheaper to operate than a ICE.

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For large numbers of people, yes. There can be other, more individual reasons, though. Aversion to gas and oil fumes and stains (and gas stations), ICE noise, regular trips to dealers for oil changes and other ICE services, and a desire to be moving away from the carbon energy sector. They aren't majority concerns, but they weigh heavily among many early adopters. In these cases we are willing to pay more, as long as we can afford it.

Interest does vary quite a bit by location, but we’re only a few miles from Boulder - an eco Mecca - and I’m surprised at the reactions I’ve gotten.

Also, I’m aware that Tesla doesn’t advertise in the traditional sense, but they have certainly been very successful at creating excitement and brand loyalty. To their credit.

As to our future plans, we’ll have to see. My wife is recovering from a major injury and can no longer drive. We may end selling everything and going in a different direction.

frontrangeleaf said:

Interest does vary quite a bit by location, but we’re only a few miles from Boulder - an eco Mecca - and I’m surprised at the reactions I’ve gotten.

Also, I’m aware that Tesla doesn’t advertise in the traditional sense, but they have certainly been very successful at creating excitement and brand loyalty. To their credit.

As to our future plans, we’ll have to see. My wife is recovering from a major injury and can no longer drive. We may end selling everything and going in a different direction.

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Sorry to hear about your wife's major injury. While I am not a one vehicle man I think a 300+ mile range Tesla could make a great ONE vehicle option the best EV out there at this time.

I think that a Tesla, like a Leaf, should be a primary or secondary vehicle, but not the sole one - with the exception of city dwellers, who should be ok with the Leaf. I'd be too worried about repair downtime with the Teslas to suggest one as someone's only car, except with maybe a rideshare membership.

LeftieBiker said:

Any BEV only becomes compelling when it becomes cheaper to operate than a ICE.

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For large numbers of people, yes. There can be other, more individual reasons, though. Aversion to gas and oil fumes and stains (and gas stations), ICE noise, regular trips to dealers for oil changes and other ICE services, and a desire to be moving away from the carbon energy sector. They aren't majority concerns, but they weigh heavily among many early adopters. In these cases we are willing to pay more, as long as we can afford it.

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Thats probably the boat we are in, if I did the math, how many miles we drive, depreciation, insurance, need to keep a second ICE for trips, etc. the Leaf isn't saving us any money but I sure like to be able to look at gas prices YoYo and not really give a damn The Leaf also has several driving advantages, quick warm-up, nice heated steering wheel, ability to easily preheat, easy to make many short trips with no adverse effects to vehicle, etc.
To me I just don't see an advantage to a 300+ EV, most of our trips are either 1000 miles+(where a BEV just wouldn't be as practical) or in suburb/in-town and a 100 mile(even with lots of heat use) would be sufficient(note we currently have an 8 and 11 bar 24kwh Leaf which does not meet that need) so I'm thinking our ideal BEV would have say a 40kwh battery, maybe 62 max. Of course were also thinking about a PHEV such as a Prius Prime or RAV4 prime that would kill 2 birds with one stone and save money on insurance and upkeep of 2 vehicles.....if/when the RAV4 Prime comes out to our area and doesn't cost an arm and a leg or have any deal breakers such as no heated steering wheel, cramped cockpit or lack of storage, at least as much storage as our old Prius.....
Not so sure the Leaf was a car before it's time but Nissan sure didn't improve on it much after introduction, well unless you include the longer range battery which is important but many of the other quirks/annoyances since introductions are still around from what I've read. Too bad as Nissan really had the leg up on basically everyone else, I think it must be a management thing at Nissan, ineptness at a high level

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ZEROEMISSION/HISTORY/

When one looks back to the 73 years of Nissan history with EV's it current state shows the will/vision to lead the EV revolution mainly was forgotten over the past 10 years.

After 24 years of building Lithium Ion battery powered EV's one would think by now they could have mastered building Lithium Ion batteries for EV's.

As sad as is the news out of Nissan is today and how they could not capitalize on their lead in Lithium Ion powered EV's they have shown the demand for low price EV's world wide. It just will be China that brings the lower priced EV's (including lower end Tesla's) to the world EV market.

Even though the Leaf clearly was a car before it's time (only because Nissan lost their way) the Leaf will always be my first EV.

Of course were also thinking about a PHEV such as a Prius Prime or RAV4 prime that would kill 2 birds with one stone and save money on insurance and upkeep of 2 vehicles.....if/when the RAV4 Prime comes out to our area and doesn't cost an arm and a leg or have any deal breakers such as no heated steering wheel, cramped cockpit or lack of storage, at least as much storage as our old Prius.....

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I seem to recall that the RAV-4 Prime will have the heated steering wheel only in the top trim level, continuing the head-in-ass policy begun by manufacturers who sell in the US of making driver comfort a multi-thousand dollar "option."

LeftieBiker said:

I think that a Tesla, like a Leaf, should be a primary or secondary vehicle, but not the sole one - with the exception of city dwellers, who should be ok with the Leaf. I'd be too worried about repair downtime with the Teslas to suggest one as someone's only car, except with maybe a rideshare membership.

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Repair down time is an issue for anyone with a single vehicle household. You solve it with a rental car. I don't think that any BEV is as likely to have repair issues as an ICE but that's my opinion. If you live in the city and never make long trips, then a 40 or 60 KWH is more than adequate. Any thing smaller will have problems with battery life (just too many charge cycles). As batteries improve and costs come down, I think that 60 KWH will become a standard size and larger batteries will become an option like a V6 or V8 engine is in a ICE.

My concern with Tesla is the possible length of the downtimes, which would make a rental car pricey. I should amend that, though, to say that I mean cases in which there isn't a Tesla repair facility nearby.

LeftieBiker said:

Of course were also thinking about a PHEV such as a Prius Prime or RAV4 prime that would kill 2 birds with one stone and save money on insurance and upkeep of 2 vehicles.....if/when the RAV4 Prime comes out to our area and doesn't cost an arm and a leg or have any deal breakers such as no heated steering wheel, cramped cockpit or lack of storage, at least as much storage as our old Prius.....

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I seem to recall that the RAV-4 Prime will have the heated steering wheel only in the top trim level, continuing the head-in-ass policy begun by manufacturers who sell in the US of making driver comfort a multi-thousand dollar "option."

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If that includes a sun/moon roof I won't do it! When cars had plenty of headroom I liked a sun/moon roof but almost all modern cars have very little headroom, add a sun/moon roof and I hit my head :x
I've said it before and will say it again, standard(even on the base S model!) heated seats(front and rear!) and heated steering wheel, sold me on a new(in '13) Leaf
The Outlander PHEV is similar, one must get the top trim model to get a heated steering wheel, which includes the sunroof :x