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WetEV said:
dgpcolorado said:
I'm down 15% at 69,000 miles in a five year old car

According to LeafSpy today I'm down 12% in 5 years and 50k miles. Your S60 has 3 times the battery size of my car.
As it happens, my LEAF was down more than that in 4 years at 33k miles with nothing but local driving at moderate speeds in a mild climate and with very slow charging.

I've Supercharged my S60 more than 273 times. I'd venture to guess that you haven't DCFCed your LEAF that many times. Might be part of the difference, although that's a WAG. Anyway, I'm something of a degradation outlier in the Tesla community, much as you are the other way in the LEAF community!
 
dgpcolorado said:
WetEV said:
dgpcolorado said:
I'm down 15% at 69,000 miles in a five year old car

According to LeafSpy today I'm down 12% in 5 years and 50k miles. Your S60 has 3 times the battery size of my car.
I've Supercharged my S60 more than 273 times. I'd venture to guess that you haven't DCFCed your LEAF that many times.

Yes, only 128 QCs. Which is still a lot.

dgpcolorado said:
Anyway, I'm something of a degradation outlier in the Tesla community, much as you are the other way in the LEAF community!

Above average, yes. Not as much as some local LEAFs. Mine isn't as good as (now ex-)co-worker's LEAF, a 2013 with more miles and less degradation than mine, two DCQCs in total, and 90% L1 charging outdoors. I think I'll make 60k before losing a bar, and maybe 70k. But not over 100k. Not a chance.
 
IEVS:
This Tesla Model S P85+ Just Passed One Million Kilometers On Odometer
https://insideevs.com/news/385016/tesla-model-s-one-million-km/


But it has already gone through a lot besides huge distances: four motors, and three battery packs. . . .

The car is currently using its 4th electric motor. The current one is holding well after 680,000 km. It is also the only one the car has since we are talking about an RWD unit. Anyway, it had to go to the shop three times to have so many km crossed, but not only that. It is also in its 3rd battery pack.

Von Gemmingen says his former batteries started to have problems when the car had 290,000 km. Tesla needed half a year to replace it, so he got a loaner battery for this period and did more 150,000 km with it. That was when he got the final battery pack installed, currently with 470,000 km. He counts only two of them, but we think the loaner battery also deserves some recognition.

The problem with these numbers is that there must be something missing. The 290,000 km plus 150,000 km would make the car have 440,000 km when it got the current battery pack. If it is actually on the EV for the last 470,000 km, it would be “only” a 910,000-km, short of the one million km mark by 90,000 km. We hope Von Gemmingen can explain that to us in the future. . . .

Asked about tips he had to keep electric cars running smoothly, Von Gemmingen advised always charging at low speed and Supercharging only for long distances. If your car's battery pack is above 10 percent charge and only up to 90 percent of charge. Will we see more people trying to break his record? We hope so.

That's 4 motors and 3 packs in 621,000 miles in a car bought used with 30,000 km in 2014. We don't know when it was built, but it has obviously had a high cycle life but possibly only a 5 year calendar life, in Germany so the climate is good for batteries.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
We all know batteries degrade and that starts on day one. Who is the mileage champ still on their original pack?
I know of one car that had the original 85 pack changed out at 197k miles. That's the longest I've heard of for the early battery packs, although there may well be others with more mileage.
 
Came across a bitter pill for this person: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-to-do-2013-model-s-60-battery-fail.176939/.

They had an original 60 kWh S w/8 year/125K mile battery pack (and DU) warranty but they're past 125K miles and Tesla won't cover it. They said "Approx. 18k still owed on loan.
Cost for repairing battery/install $11k "

I haven't read the thread in detail but it's funny how a bunch of people were confused by Elon's original announcement and didn't catch that the 40 and 60 kWh Model S of the time didn't get an infinite mileage but limited by 8 year battery pack and DU warranty.

On the bright side, per kWh, it's a lot better deal than the obscene amount Nissan wants for a 24 kWh pack.

Will be interesting to know if out of DU and battery pack warranty Model S take a big hit/nosedive in resale value. We'll be seeing more and more soon...
 
Valdemar said:
I can't wait to learn about post warranty Tesla resale values. The Leaf situation may end up being not too bad, relatively, after all.


I'm also curious to see what happens after warranties expire. But I'm not sure why you suggest Tesla will be equal or worse than leaf. Leaf values plummeted well before warranties expired. Most Tesla's are doing well with regard to battery which would be the big ticket item to replace. But for sure we will see changes to the resale and we'll likely see some sort of aftermarket refurbishment business start to pop up.
 
I certainly was aware of the warranty mileage limit for my S-60 battery but it appears that I will hit the limit at about seven to eight years, so it doesn't make much difference — I'm currently at 90k miles on my May 2014 build car.

My battery is down about 14% but it seems to have been stable at that figure for over a year now. My plan, when the range got too low to do my longer trip legs, was to put another battery in the car. A year and a half ago a service guy quoted me $15k for a battery replacement (a software limited 75 kWh battery, he said). However, I have no idea what sort of replacements will actually be available when the time comes, or the cost. For now my range isn't dropping much, if at all, so it is something to worry about for the future.

I'd rather pay for a rebuilt battery for an otherwise solid car than roll the dice on buying another much more expensive used Tesla that would have options and features that I really don't want. However, there may be a lot of other EV choices in a few years, so I'll wait and see. I have already got a lot more of my money's worth on my S-60 than I did on my LEAF, but back in 2011 I was eager to get an EV any way I could!
 
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
We all know batteries degrade and that starts on day one. Who is the mileage champ still on their original pack?
I know of one car that had the original 85 pack changed out at 197k miles. That's the longest I've heard of for the early battery packs, although there may well be others with more mileage.

So pack failure? Can't imagine degradation had proceeded enough.
 
palmermd said:
Valdemar said:
I can't wait to learn about post warranty Tesla resale values. The Leaf situation may end up being not too bad, relatively, after all.


I'm also curious to see what happens after warranties expire. But I'm not sure why you suggest Tesla will be equal or worse than leaf. Leaf values plummeted well before warranties expired. Most Tesla's are doing well with regard to battery which would be the big ticket item to replace. But for sure we will see changes to the resale and we'll likely see some sort of aftermarket refurbishment business start to pop up.

Has anyone actually done the math on resale values? I don't see the LEAF as losing here. I know TWO S85 owners that went to the T3. Purchased for $91k (drove 67,000 miles) and $107K (drove 104,000 miles) sold for $41 and $37k respectively. Value loss on the latter was $9k a year which means you can throw away your LEAF and get a whole new car every 3½ years and be ahead financially.

This is how emerging technology works. I gave away my $400 DVD player (to Goodwill) when I replaced it with my $65 Blu Ray. Soon my $2500 55" Sony will be replaced with something 65" or more for probably less than $400.

Did we ever think that EVs would be different?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
We all know batteries degrade and that starts on day one. Who is the mileage champ still on their original pack?
I know of one car that had the original 85 pack changed out at 197k miles. That's the longest I've heard of for the early battery packs, although there may well be others with more mileage.

So pack failure? Can't imagine degradation had proceeded enough.

Many of the Model S vehicles out there that have had battery replacements have been due to cell/pack failures, not degradation. Some guy hit 1 million kilometers in his Model S, he's had the pack replaced 3 times, taking full advantage of the 8 years unlimited mileage warranties those original cars had. Tesla has learned a lot on increasing the reliability of the packs and drive units in that time. I wouldn't consider a used Model S that's before the year 2015 unless the drive unit has been replaced since 2015, as they had high failure rates. Anything past 2015 looks to be pretty stable on both battery packs and drive units.
 
Durandal said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
dgpcolorado said:
I know of one car that had the original 85 pack changed out at 197k miles. That's the longest I've heard of for the early battery packs, although there may well be others with more mileage.

So pack failure? Can't imagine degradation had proceeded enough.

Many of the Model S vehicles out there that have had battery replacements have been due to cell/pack failures, not degradation. Some guy hit 1 million kilometers in his Model S, he's had the pack replaced 3 times, taking full advantage of the 8 years unlimited mileage warranties those original cars had. Tesla has learned a lot on increasing the reliability of the packs and drive units in that time. I wouldn't consider a used Model S that's before the year 2015 unless the drive unit has been replaced since 2015, as they had high failure rates. Anything past 2015 looks to be pretty stable on both battery packs and drive units.

Yep, I have to say the same applies to all EVs evenly the lowly LEAF. They have all improved. It really shows that it was never battery technology that delayed EVs, it was always propaganda based special interests. I have noticed more and more information verifying that oil companies had been planning fracking for decades but had to wait for the right time to do it. Well, that right time never happened so they had to create some "facts" to hasten the idea along.
 
palmermd said:
Valdemar said:
I can't wait to learn about post warranty Tesla resale values. The Leaf situation may end up being not too bad, relatively, after all.


I'm also curious to see what happens after warranties expire. But I'm not sure why you suggest Tesla will be equal or worse than leaf. Leaf values plummeted well before warranties expired. Most Tesla's are doing well with regard to battery which would be the big ticket item to replace. But for sure we will see changes to the resale and we'll likely see some sort of aftermarket refurbishment business start to pop up.

I guess it would be just nice to see the myth about good Tesla resale value busted.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
We all know batteries degrade and that starts on day one. Who is the mileage champ still on their original pack?
I know of one car that had the original 85 pack changed out at 197k miles. That's the longest I've heard of for the early battery packs, although there may well be others with more mileage.

So pack failure? Can't imagine degradation had proceeded enough.
Yes, pack failure (my recollection was that the owner said he was down about 15% at 197k miles, but it has been awhile since I saw the comment). The battery warranty doesn't include normal degradation and I haven't heard of any packs being replaced for degradation.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
What highway range do you get in you 60? 200 miles? (Temperate summer day)
That's a hard question to answer. Depends on variables such as speed, wind and altitude (I get better mileage in Colorado*, Utah and New Mexico than when I go to sea level, for obvious reasons). At about 63 mph I get perhaps 185 to 190 miles. At 80 mph, the speed limit in much of the Intermountain West, perhaps 140 miles, although I haven't measured it, so that's a guess based on trip legs i drive.

My S-60 currently shows about 179 RM (EPA rated miles) at 100%; I believe that the figure when new would have been 208 RM (I bought my car used and have since put 83k miles on it in three and a half years). For most of my driving I do better than the EPA efficiency so my actual range is better than that. For example, I did a 6159 mile road trip to the Midwest in October and averaged 294 Wh/mile, which is a bit better than the EPA par of 300 Wh/mile for my car model. That trip included a lot of high speed freeway driving, no surprise, and was entirely at cool temperatures, mostly 40s but ranging from 30s to a couple of days that got up into the 60s for a few hours.


* For those unfamiliar with my state, the lowest altitude in Colorado is 3315 feet (1010 meters) near the Kansas-Nebraska border, the average is well over 6000 feet (1800 m), and most of the mountain passes are in the 10,000 to 12,000 ft range (3000-3650 m). Thinner air means significantly reduced aerodynamic drag.
 
cwerdna said:
Came across a bitter pill for this person: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-to-do-2013-model-s-60-battery-fail.176939/.

They had an original 60 kWh S w/8 year/125K mile battery pack (and DU) warranty but they're past 125K miles and Tesla won't cover it. They said "Approx. 18k still owed on loan.
Cost for repairing battery/install $11k "

I haven't read the thread in detail but it's funny how a bunch of people were confused by Elon's original announcement and didn't catch that the 40 and 60 kWh Model S of the time didn't get an infinite mileage but limited by 8 year battery pack and DU warranty.

On the bright side, per kWh, it's a lot better deal than the obscene amount Nissan wants for a 24 kWh pack.

Will be interesting to know if out of DU and battery pack warranty Model S take a big hit/nosedive in resale value. We'll be seeing more and more soon...

Failure eh? So not degradation based? So the cost is entire pack replacement verses replacing failed cells? Sounds like Tesla packs built for the one and done process? TBH; confused as to whether its a repair or pack replacement/
 
^^^
I'm pretty sure they're going to install either a new or refurb pack and not repair it. I don't think SCs are equipped to repair packs beyond say a contactor.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-to-do-2013-model-s-60-battery-fail.176939/page-6#post-4290037 says he decided to bite the bullet and pay the $11K.
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
I'm pretty sure they're going to install either a new or refurb pack and not repair it. I don't think SCs are equipped to repair packs beyond say a contactor.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-to-do-2013-model-s-60-battery-fail.176939/page-6#post-4290037 says he decided to bite the bullet and pay the $11K.

Well refurb pack at original capacity for 11K is quite a good deal really. It will be newer technology so likely to last longer than the original one did.
 
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