For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14000

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PerformanceMotors said:
LeftieBiker said:
I don't recall what SV gets a customer compared to an 'S' model.


In 2016 it gets the heat pump, telematics, alloy wheels, and available Premium Package.

How about a 30kwh battery. The S still has the 24kwh.
.
That is apparently true some of the time.
Paige Presley of the communications group at Nissan North America wrote:

We have made a running change to the 2016 Leaf S model to equip it with 30-kwh battery packs as standard equipment, offering best-in-class range across all trim levels for Leaf.

Additionally, all 2016 Leaf S vehicles equipped with the 30-kwh battery pack will also come with the Quick Charge Package as a standard feature.
 
PerformanceMotors said:
LeftieBiker said:
I don't recall what SV gets a customer compared to an 'S' model.


In 2016 it gets the heat pump, telematics, alloy wheels, and available Premium Package.

How about a 30kwh battery. The S still has the 24kwh.
I was wondering when someone was going to point out that very important addition ;)
Man, now I see why people used to be restricted from posting in the "for sale" section of this site, when was that restriction lifted any way and why? If a seller and potential customer need to converse, there is always the PM function.
I mean here we have a seller paying money(at least you used to have to pay to become a member to list things for sale in this forum.....) to list his ad and he's got nothing but hassles from some of the regulars saying how high his price is. I'm not going to comment on the price, if I felt it was too high(and was in the market) I'd either ignore his ad and roll my eyes or if I thought it was within the ballpark and thought the seller would come down on their price, I'd PM them with an offer.
I for one see an advantage of being able to use a car for some time and then when I wanted before the warranty wore out, getting a new battery assuming and I feel it's a pretty good assumption it will drop to 8 bars. Now it's a risk, it might not drop but IMO it's a pretty good chance. Of course if you need the range NOW, it's probably not a good deal for you also what someone said about "a bird in the hand" is fitting, it's not a guarantee it will drop and if your not willing to take the chance, it's probably not a good deal for you.
Performance Motors, please stop trying to change the minds of some members of this forum, it's just not going to happen :) I understand the desire to do that but just like some members of our political system, there is NO way they are going to lose an argument or be wrong and you are just knocking your head against a brick wall.......
 
jjeff said:
I was wondering when someone was going to point out that very important addition ;)
Man, now I see why people used to be restricted from posting in the "for sale" section of this site, when was that restriction lifted any way and why? If a seller and potential customer need to converse, there is always the PM function.
I mean here we have a seller paying money(at least you used to have to pay to become a member to list things for sale in this forum.....) to list his ad and he's got nothing but hassles from some of the regulars saying how high his price is. I'm not going to comment on the price, if I felt it was too high(and was in the market) I'd either ignore his ad and roll my eyes or if I thought it was within the ballpark and thought the seller would come down on their price, I'd PM them with an offer.
I for one see an advantage of being able to use a car for some time and then when I wanted before the warranty wore out, getting a new battery assuming and I feel it's a pretty good assumption it will drop to 8 bars. Now it's a risk, it might not drop but IMO it's a pretty good chance. Of course if you need the range NOW, it's probably not a good deal for you also what someone said about "a bird in the hand" is fitting, it's not a guarantee it will drop and if your not willing to take the chance, it's probably not a good deal for you.
Performance Motors, please stop trying to change the minds of some members of this forum, it's just not going to happen :) I understand the desire to do that but just like some members of our political system, there is NO way they are going to lose an argument or be wrong and you are just knocking your head against a brick wall.......


This is a good point.
 
jjeff said:
PerformanceMotors said:
LeftieBiker said:
In 2016 it gets the heat pump, telematics, alloy wheels, and available Premium Package.

How about a 30kwh battery. The S still has the 24kwh.
I was wondering when someone was going to point out that very important addition ;)
Man, now I see why people used to be restricted from posting in the "for sale" section of this site, when was that restriction lifted any way and why? If a seller and potential customer need to converse, there is always the PM function.
I mean here we have a seller paying money(at least you used to have to pay to become a member to list things for sale in this forum.....) to list his ad and he's got nothing but hassles from some of the regulars saying how high his price is. I'm not going to comment on the price, if I felt it was too high(and was in the market) I'd either ignore his ad and roll my eyes or if I thought it was within the ballpark and thought the seller would come down on their price, I'd PM them with an offer.
I for one see an advantage of being able to use a car for some time and then when I wanted before the warranty wore out, getting a new battery assuming and I feel it's a pretty good assumption it will drop to 8 bars. Now it's a risk, it might not drop but IMO it's a pretty good chance. Of course if you need the range NOW, it's probably not a good deal for you also what someone said about "a bird in the hand" is fitting, it's not a guarantee it will drop and if your not willing to take the chance, it's probably not a good deal for you.
Performance Motors, please stop trying to change the minds of some members of this forum, it's just not going to happen :) I understand the desire to do that but just like some members of our political system, there is NO way they are going to lose an argument or be wrong and you are just knocking your head against a brick wall.......

Good advice.. thanks
 
I wanted to add that I looked at the warranty book earlier.. and the battery capacity warranty on a 30kwh battery is indeed 8yrs/100k miles. So for this leaf, you do have until April of 2024 to loose the 9th bar to qualify under the warranty.
 
PerformanceMotors said:
I wanted to add that I looked at the warranty book earlier.. and the battery capacity warranty on a 30kwh battery is indeed 8yrs/100k miles. So for this leaf, you do have until April of 2024 to loose the 9th bar to qualify under the warranty.

This means the car is basically guaranteed to get a new battery. Make sure you take it in the dealership for the battery checkups. :)
 
SageBrush said:
sendler2112 said:
Your link sent me to a 16 Leaf S with 33,900 miles for $10,000.
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/780523936/overview/
.
THAT is a deal worth checking out. First sale was 6/2016 so the battery warranty extends out to 6/2024 IIRC that this model has the 8yr/100k warranty. Fair chance that the car would work out to $1,000 a year over its remaining useful life. I'm presuming that the battery gets replaced in 2-4 years.

Update: A free VIN check on this car suggests that it is a 24 kWh model. Midway into 2016 the 'S' model was upgraded from 24 to 30 kWh. One way to figure out the battery size is to look at the curb weight: the 24 kWh model was under 3300 lbs. Neither the dealership or the VIN check I was able to read for free discloses new car range or battery size.
 
Lothsahn said:
PerformanceMotors said:
I wanted to add that I looked at the warranty book earlier.. and the battery capacity warranty on a 30kwh battery is indeed 8yrs/100k miles. So for this leaf, you do have until April of 2024 to loose the 9th bar to qualify under the warranty.

This means the car is basically guaranteed to get a new battery. Make sure you take it in the dealership for the battery checkups. :)

It was always guaranteed. Just more believers this way. :)
 
Almost a month ago I picked up a 2016 Leaf SL with $2K of factory options showing 9/12 SOH bars at 21.6K miles that looks new inside and out that was just off a 3 year lease and being sold at a Nissan dealership. Another dealer had the same car, miles and options that was about an hour farther away showing 12/12 SOH bars. Both dealers were trying to get $16K.

I was interested in the one I bought because it was showing 9/12 bars so I could learn more about the reality of the 30 wKh battery degradation issue and how the software "fix" worked its magic. I do not question the validity of the software patch any longer based on research on the degradation issue. If it is a true degradation it will not give the bars back as I understand it.

Now after about 15 L2 charges LSP reports all blue battery bars coming in in the 4.08 volt average. LSPro is reporting SOH at 64% of Gids when fully charged. The Gids actually are about on target for the 24 wKh battery new. I have driven it with Gids as low as 7 and back at the charger running the heat, etc Gids dropped to 6 and the turtle and reduced power message popped but I did not drive it so I do not know it the turtle was for real or just due to the LBC telling the car it was out of power.

What I would like to do is put the generator into the PU that has the 14-50 outlet and drive it until it dies then just charge it on the side of the road to get back home. One research project found many of the Leafs kept going to the 100+mile mark with the dash info just blank.

Price wise I think the $16K if a fully loaded SL with all factor options at around 20K miles and looks new like is a standard starting point on the internet. The dealer salesman had printed out the battery 8 year/ 100K mile coverage before I got there because he agreed 9/12 for a low mileage 2016 was a selling problem for sure.

Great guy and we just talked as adults about the car and my concerns about the car. Fully charged then and now the range is 60-70 real miles. He wanted me to make an offer so I did. Actually I was looking at a 2015 that CL seller was asking $12K that I had pulled together the money but at the last minute I found our 2016 in the opposite direction and decided to see it first. I offered the $12K since I was ready to pay that for a 2015 with the 4 external cameras. They came back with a $13,400 offer after they huddled for about 20 minutes in the next office. They had bought the car from Nissan newly off lease and had it on the lot over a month. I was told in hindsight they had overpaid Nissan for the car so they came off $2500. Actually the KBB high price from a dealership was about what I paid anyway. Nearly 2 years of power train coverage and nearly 5 on the battery was a huge plus over a CL Leaf so without any haggle I asked if they would put the difference on a CC and they said they would. They went with me to get a U-Haul car trailer and loaded it for me due to my age and physical limitations and I got it home that night at 11 pm.

Personally I think paying over $13K for a decked out low mileage 2016 Leaf SL showing 9/12 SOH bars is nothing to brag about. The reality there are not many Leafs with 4 exterior cameras on the market in mid America and used Leaf prices are on the uptick since EV interest in the $15K range is picking up. This was the first Leaf that I ever touched or drove. Buying from a actual Nissan dealership and the 9/12 bar condition being noted on the sales invoice was a plus in my mine over buying from a stranger off CL.

Next month I may get the LBM software update done and see the results if any. With a SOH of 64% per Leaf Spy with nearly 5 years of battery coverage I feel OK but would like to have 100+ range sooner than later. By the way a new battery is not a sure thing because they are repairing/replacing bad cells they days I read.

I am very pleased with our deal even it I paid more than I wanted so could get started learning about EV's since I want to get 3 more into the family over time. Yesterday I had to drive the 2010 Subaru Forest with 140K miles and it would not just stop without using the brakes. :)

In fact after 3 weeks I can not see wanting to go back to a non EV.
 
I was interested in the one I bought because it was showing 9/12 bars so I could learn more about the reality of the 30 wKh battery degradation issue and how the software "fix" worked its magic. I do not question the validity of the software patch any longer based on research on the degradation issue. If it is a true degradation it will not give the bars back as I understand it.


You don't quite understand. The lost bars will return after the update, if only because they usually seem to reboot the battery management computer when they do the update. Then the regained capacity bars may or may not stay. It's essentially a crapshoot unless you either do a range test for about 20 miles, or use Sagebrush's charge capacity test, before buying, to determine if the battery is degraded or not.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I was interested in the one I bought because it was showing 9/12 bars so I could learn more about the reality of the 30 wKh battery degradation issue and how the software "fix" worked its magic. I do not question the validity of the software patch any longer based on research on the degradation issue. If it is a true degradation it will not give the bars back as I understand it.


You don't quite understand. The lost bars will return after the update, if only because they usually seem to reboot the battery management computer when they do the update. Then the regained capacity bars may or may not stay. It's essentially a crapshoot unless you either do a range test for about 20 miles, or use Sagebrush's charge capacity test, before buying, to determine if the battery is degraded or not.

That's what I'm trying to understand, the science behind the software update before I have it done.
 
That's what I'm trying to understand, the science behind the software update before I have it done.


We don't have access to the details of how the update works. All that we know is this:

* The update resets the BMS to read 12 bars.

* As the BMS relearns the actual capacity, the 12 bars may remain, or one or more of them may once again be lost over the next few weeks and months.

* Some people have regained and retained 12 bars.

* Some people have regained all lost bars and then have re-lost one or more, but not all of them.

* Some people have seen no actual improvement in capacity or range, just the usual effects of a BMS reset.


In my used Leaf buying guide I note that the only 30kwh Leafs that you can count on to have 12 bars of actual capacity are the ones that show 12 bars with no update.* I'm going to add here that I believe that a 30kwh Leaf showing three or more lost bars is very likely NOT a 12 bar car with a software error. An 11 bar 30kwh Leaf may (or may not) just have faulty BMS programming. Nissan claims that the 30kwh packs degrade at the same rate as the 24kwh 2015 "Lizard" packs, but the reality seems to be that degradation is a mixed bag with these packs, with some of them degrading fairly rapidly and some retaining capacity well. The latter seem to mainly in cooler climates. I have dubbed them "Lettuce Packs" because they seem to wilt (lose bars) in the heat and stay "fresh" in cool temps.


* You can also determine actual capacity by doing a range test that involves driving the car X miles and then extrapolating to a full charge to Very Low Battery Warning or empty drive, or by doing a full charge from near empty and measuring the number of kilowatt hours added.
 
I found these articles to be helpful.

https://insideevs.com/news/338528/u...2016-17-leaf-30-kwh-battery-reporting-issues/


https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=530079#p530079
This dealer communication from Nissan helped me grasp this issue was not a battery problem but a software issue. When the software tells the motor it is out of juice and it decreases output (Turtle Mode) even if the battery contains another 20 miles of range.

Of course if one actually 10 cells that are dead then that is more than a software issue clearly.

https://www.greencarreports.com/ne...3-times-that-of-earlier-electric-cars-study
This story about degradation not being real but a software issue.

I think of a jet on an international flight that has a math error of .001 degree. 5 minutes after take off the math error is not really noticeable by someone standing on the ground. A thousand miles later the plane be greatly off the planned path and much more even after 5 thousand miles.

While my 2016 Leaf SL reports the expected range is 70 miles (as was the case today) I bet three years ago when it was new that it was reporting 107 miles of range or the leasers would have complained. History indicated they on average charged ever 30 miles of usage and from wear on the L1 OEM charger it may not have had a L2 at home. One DC fast charge is reported and that could have been new at the dealers even.

After a few weeks of several Turtle to 100% charges the remaining range miles counter and the odometer are about one for one but at first it might drop by 10 miles after only traveling the first 2 miles. Leaf Spy Pro now reports all blue bars when fully charged and cell voltage around 4.05 volts. Once the range after a full charge after a deep discharge reported 95 miles but in 60-70 miles would be down to reported Gids of 7 or 8. Was the battery about out of juice or just thinking it was about out of juice?

At this point I expect the software fix may work but if not I have almost 5 years or 77K miles which ever comes first to trigger a battery repair or replacement. All is golden in the meantime in a functional sense. We have a solid 60-70 actual mile range and the required range is under 30 miles before we get back to the charger at home.

Time will tell.
 
I'm familiar with Nissan's position on this, which is the same position relayed by Lieber. The idea that this is "just a software issue" hasn't born out in many cases. It appears to me that Nissan discovered that some of the 30kwh packs did indeed have a BMS software issue, and they are using this to cover up what appears to be a BIG quality control issue (and possibly a design issue as well) in the 30wkh packs with the BMS "update." As I wrote in the previous post, it's a crapshoot: the update likely will restore all three of the missing bars in that car, and they may stay restored. More likely, IMO, they will not. The "update" seems to do two things: make the BMS more um, optimistic about remaining capacity, and it tells the BMS to use more of the capacity available at lower voltages than before - something that is not necessarily a good idea for long battery life. Keep in mind that Nissan's goal is simply to stop replacing a lot of 30kwh packs. It is not to ensure a long and happy life for the packs in use, just for them to retain at least nine capacity bars for 8 years or 100,000 miles when at all possible.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I'm familiar with Nissan's position on this, which is the same position relayed by Lieber. The idea that this is "just a software issue" hasn't born out in many cases. It appears to me that Nissan discovered that some of the 30kwh packs did indeed have a BMS software issue, and they are using this to cover up what appears to be a BIG quality control issue (and possibly a design issue as well) in the 30wkh packs with the BMS "update." As I wrote in the previous post, it's a crapshoot: the update likely will restore all three of the missing bars in that car, and they may stay restored. More likely, IMO, they will not. The "update" seems to do two things: make the BMS more um, optimistic about remaining capacity, and it tells the BMS to use more of the capacity available at lower voltages than before - something that is not necessarily a good idea for long battery life. Keep in mind that Nissan's goal is simply to stop replacing a lot of 30kwh packs. It is not to ensure a long and happy life for the packs in use, just for them to retain at least nine capacity bars for 8 years or 100,000 miles when at all possible.

At this point I do not know the facts of this matter but will in time because I put my money on the table. Your view may turn out to be valid as the data is gathered. This 2016 Leaf SL is my sixth Nissan over the last 46 years years but the first without a gas tank and is the most expensive vehicle I have ever purchased and is the nicest one as well.

Some honeymoons last a life time. I have never owned a Nissan that I did not wear out at around 200K miles. My first one was a 1973 Datsun 1200 couple that I bought new for $2150. We ran the 1986.5 Nissan Hardbody until 2015 and still only had 140K miles on it and it still is a good truck running around town today. I am going to keep my eye on their 2021 EV with specs more like the Telsa Model 3. This area is wrapped up in Nissan cars and trucks being only 100+ miles from the factory in the Nashville region.
 
Just keep in mind that one possible outcome is a 30kwh Leaf with 24kwh range, and a battery that clings to 9 or 10 bars for years. As long as you are ok with that, I don't think that you made a mistake.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Just keep in mind that one possible outcome is a 30kwh Leaf with 24kwh range, and a battery that clings to 9 or 10 bars for years. As long as you are ok with that, I don't think that you made a mistake.


Of the two 2016 Leaf SL's with the same miles and options with the same asking prices I selected the one with 9/12 bars instead of the one with 12/12 bars. It was my intent to buy a 30 kWh Leaf with the "degradation" issue so I can teach myself if the degradation is factual or fiction or a combo of the two. Nissan has me covered battery wise for nearly 5 years going forward if I do not add more than 77K miles to the car. In time I want to get 3 more EV's for the family and put to use some of my Navy A and B electronic schooling at Millington Naval Air station as an old man. :)

While mis and dis information about EV's is all over the web if one can separate facts from fiction some good deals may be out there. You know my position on the fear of the unknown. :)
 
Of the two 2016 Leaf SL's with the same miles and options with the same asking prices I selected the one with 9/12 bars instead of the one with 12/12 bars.


If that other one had had the update applied then it's a crapshoot either way. If, however, it did not, then it's exactly the sort of 30kwh Leaf I tell people to buy...
 
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