Level 3 at home

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cwerdna said:
Marktm said:
When the EV, DC charge ports allow protocols for bidirectional energy
...
Seems Nissan is getting close to actually sanctioning (warranting) the bidirectional part. We'll see.
The V2H part with Leafs via CHAdeMO has been going on in Japan for years.

http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/product_news/new124.html
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=504949#p504949
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=510092#p510092 - one of the links there is dead but one can see a snapshot at https://web.archive.org/web/20171017020838/http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/AESCCAT/14-035/index.html

Unknown off the top of my head if it actually works on US market Leafs and on which model years/build month ranges.

The tech is available, the grid and associated regulations in the USA won’t allow it. That is a much bigger issue that will take time.
 
SalisburySam said:
cwerdna said:
Unfortunately, no US Teslas have more than 1 inlet, so no. Would be nice.
I believe the Tesla Semi has multiple charging ports to speed charging for its humongous battery. But no, none of the automobiles does.
Earlier reports (photographing supposedly not allowed) said it was actually some hub where multiple SC cables were attached to.

https://electrek.co/2018/08/25/tesla-semi-drove-across-country-supercharger-elon-musk/
People who have witnessed Tesla Semi prototypes charging at Supercharger stations have told Electrek that the system made of extension cords plugs into several Supercharger stalls at the same time and into several charge ports on the truck.

They weren’t able to take any picture of the contraption aside from the one we see above.
https://electricrevs.com/2019/02/15/how-to-supercharge-a-tesla-semi/
 
SalisburySam said:
powersurge said:
...Leaf owners are cheap as hell.
Beg to disagree. Ordered my LEAF in 2010 for a $99 deposit. Back then a deposit on a non-existent car was a huge risk or lunacy, your call. When they became available, my supposed 2011 model became a 2012, and I took delivery Feb, 2012. Out the door it was almost exactly $40K, not a small amount now or back in 2012. I was cheap enough to not get a Model S or Roadster, but $40k is still a pretty good bag o’ shekels, at least pour moi.

I am sorry, I did not want to insult Leaf owners as all being "cheap". We are a very select group of technology, ecology, and anti-petroleum enthusiasts who have chosen to adopt the "Leaf Lifestyle"... I have no problem plugging and unplugging the car daily. I have no problem with the car's limitations.

However, I refer to Leaf owners as being "cheap" in the sense that (on a daily basis) I read posts of people complaining about some minor maintenance costs, or stating that they hate the car and will get rid of it if they have to spend more than $500 on a repair. Also, I have always been a proponent of getting a 240 Volt "EVSE" charger in your home. I have continued to get complaints from posters when I stated that a home charger was "The only way to go" if you own a Leaf. So many comments have been written that they have a right to not spend such high sums for installation if they do not "have the money"...

So, in those cases i say that Many Leaf drivers are "cheap". If you do not have the money for a suggested charger upgrade, then don't complain about a good suggestion. Just keep on charging on your slow charger.
 
Oh I'm cheap as hell no offense taken.
I'm anti petrochemical use as far as there just isn't any reason to burn gasoline for the vast majority of passenger car transportation.
Still need asphalt for roads, diesel for international commerce and lube oils.
 
I think Level 3 at home would be cool but since I sleep at least 5 hours nightly at home there really is nothing L3 can do for me that L2 is not doing now since from Empty to Full is 5 hours max in our case with current sizes of batteries. When EV's down the road have 200-300 kWh batteries then a different charging solution will be needed and perhaps we could go days without recharging or could take a few minutes to do it at an EV filling station set up.

The way technology is changing I am find with our $400 40 amp L2 solution it fully meets our needs. Some day that will not cut it but I can worry about that some day. :)

In business I have thrown away $100K's of technology that still worked fine but it was outdated due to technology advancements. One day my J1772 equipment is going to be worthless and I know it. The DC port in our Leafs are going way soon I read due to lack of support but that is not remotely a concern of mine today.

Level 4, 5, 6, etc are coming I am certain but today from fully discharged I can add 30 miles of range in 60 minutes with Level 2 at 26 amps output then run to town and back or just jump into one of 4 other vehicles with gas tanks that we try to keep full just in case.
 
sdwarwick said:
Hi Folks - I'm working with a startup company that is looking at developing a true "level 3" DC charger for residential deployment. This would enable you to fully charge the car in 30 minutes from 90% discharge at home. The system would run off of standard home wiring, and would essentially "build up" a charge for fast-dump into the car, and then go through a slow build-up again.

The intent would be to bring fast charging to places where only L2 is typically available, and would potentially eliminate one of the key constraints around owning an EV.

Although the technology issues have been solved, there is still some controversy as to actual interest from the EV community. I was wondering if people in this group would have an opinion as to if this would be of "high value"

As a complete charging unit the price would be something like 25% of the cost of the EV itself.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Back to the original! What you are wanting to develop is close to production (hopefully). Certainly not for every home owner - unless you have a significant renewable system and you want to be mostly energy independent - as it contains significant energy storage. I'm not sure it will have the needed MPPT PV input and also be bi-directional? (IMO), your development at the $10,000 price point, might fit better in home and small businesses that have rather large PV systems and need storage. To me, PV input, bidirectional and tailored energy storage are critical elements needed (with CHAdeMO/CCS bidirectional protocols that are warranted by the manufacturer).


https://freewiretech.com/products/dc-boost-charger/
 
GaleHawkins said:
I think Level 3 at home would be cool but since I sleep at least 5 hours nightly at home there really is nothing L3 can do for me that L2 is not doing now since from Empty to Full is 5 hours max in our case with current sizes of batteries. When EV's down the road have 200-300 kWh batteries then a different charging solution will be needed and perhaps we could go days without recharging or could take a few minutes to do it at an EV filling station set up.

The way technology is changing I am find with our $400 40 amp L2 solution it fully meets our needs. Some day that will not cut it but I can worry about that some day. :)

In business I have thrown away $100K's of technology that still worked fine but it was outdated due to technology advancements. One day my J1772 equipment is going to be worthless and I know it. The DC port in our Leafs are going way soon I read due to lack of support but that is not remotely a concern of mine today.

Level 4, 5, 6, etc are coming I am certain but today from fully discharged I can add 30 miles of range in 60 minutes with Level 2 at 26 amps output then run to town and back or just jump into one of 4 other vehicles with gas tanks that we try to keep full just in case.

The largest practical line you can run if a person already has a 200 amp service is 4 gauge which would be limited to 90 amps of 240v power for 21kw.
I have a 4 gauge fed circuit for my welder is highly unusual for residential.
I say the max power of a homes single phase to a charger that would be 125 amps, that way an oven, clothes dryer or central air conditioning can still run and that's 30kw. It would almost need to be located at the homes meter.

It looks like around half of EV owners just use 120v chargers. A lot of the EV owners who do install 240v evse units cry about the cost of the wiring and the unit.
 
Yes going level 2 is not without a real cost upfront but level 1 is not best for battery health I read.

Our 40 Amp Mustart charger cable was $379. Electrical supplies was about $75 for parts and wire. I wanted to cut power at the 50 amp RV receptacle and that switch box was about $40 so that computer wasn't live 24/7 without unplugging it.

I went with the future charging needs in mind and on a 1x12 board to make it easy to move some day. 26 amps is Max a Leaf can draw.
 
GaleHawkins said:
When EV's down the road have 200-300 kWh batteries then a different charging solution will be needed
Are you planning to drive 1000 miles every day in the future ?
 
GaleHawkins said:
I think Level 3 at home would be cool but since I sleep at least 5 hours nightly at home there really is nothing L3 can do for me that L2 is not doing now since from Empty to Full is 5 hours max in our case with current sizes of batteries. When EV's down the road have 200-300 kWh batteries then a different charging solution will be needed and perhaps we could go days without recharging or could take a few minutes to do it at an EV filling station set up.

The way technology is changing I am find with our $400 40 amp L2 solution it fully meets our needs. Some day that will not cut it but I can worry about that some day. :)

In business I have thrown away $100K's of technology that still worked fine but it was outdated due to technology advancements. One day my J1772 equipment is going to be worthless and I know it. The DC port in our Leafs are going way soon I read due to lack of support but that is not remotely a concern of mine today.

Level 4, 5, 6, etc are coming I am certain but today from fully discharged I can add 30 miles of range in 60 minutes with Level 2 at 26 amps output then run to town and back or just jump into one of 4 other vehicles with gas tanks that we try to keep full just in case.

There is no reason your L2 unit would be useless unless they change the standard and US residential voltages are not going to go above 240V in your lifetime. Unlikely there will be L4, 5 etc for cars, DC fast charging speed is not rated in levels it is just high speed charging which varies presently. L1 is not better for your battery and actually has many disadvantages.
 
With the exception of God Awful Fast sports cars like the new Tesla Roadster or trucks that actually haul trailers or heavy loads, you're not likely to see battery packs beyond 100KWH. Those will use larger battery packs so that they can draw huge currents from the battery, but otherwise most battery packs will stay around 60-75 KWH. They will get smaller, lighter, and cheaper. That's a good thing since the cars they come in will get cheaper as well. Anything in excess of 250-300 miles per charge isn't really necessary. The average driver only drives 30 miles a day so even if you have to use a public charger exclusively. you're only going to need to charge once a week. A larger battery only adds to the cost and doesn't have much of a benefit to the user. The added weight lowers efficiency as well. Smaller packs can easily be charged overnight at home as needed.
 
On cue, Elon has announced via Twitter that Model 'S' will come with a larger pack next year.

Nothing useful will come of starting from what people "need." The question is how much do they want. That seems to be ~ 350 miles range year round.
 
The charging at home needs I expect is going to vary greatly.

There are going to be high end and very high end EV's just as with ICE cars where price is not a concern.

The sub $10K, $20K, $30K and $40K EV's may make up 80% of the market at some point and as noted the chargers of today will cover that well I expect near term. The love affair with cars over the past 75 years is over based on our 22 year old son and daughter who look at value/cost ratios. Cars today look more or less the same because wind tunnel testing is the holy grail in autos these days. Trikes are a good vehicle style and weight for EV's.

Charger needs will change when the lithium ion batteries fall out of favor for some newer technology but when they are dirt cheap they may still appeal to the basic transportation line of EV's.

Self driving is coming but for the 20 year old college student it may not be practical price wise. Time will tell the EV story.
 
GaleHawkins said:
Yes going level 2 is not without a real cost upfront but level 1 is not best for battery health I read.

Our 40 Amp Mustart charger cable was $379. Electrical supplies was about $75 for parts and wire. I wanted to cut power at the 50 amp RV receptacle and that switch box was about $40 so that computer wasn't live 24/7 without unplugging it.
.
Nowadays I think most EV manufacturers provide an L2 mobile EVSE that can work pretty well as a home EVSE. Installing a 14-50 receptacle can be a simple DIY job (or not, YMMV.) At its cheapest, ~ $50 for a 9.6 kW receptacle and circuit.
 
johnlocke said:
With the exception of God Awful Fast sports cars like the new Tesla Roadster or trucks that actually haul trailers or heavy loads, you're not likely to see battery packs beyond 100KWH. Those will use larger battery packs so that they can draw huge currents from the battery, but otherwise most battery packs will stay around 60-75 KWH. They will get smaller, lighter, and cheaper. That's a good thing since the cars they come in will get cheaper as well. Anything in excess of 250-300 miles per charge isn't really necessary. The average driver only drives 30 miles a day so even if you have to use a public charger exclusively. you're only going to need to charge once a week. A larger battery only adds to the cost and doesn't have much of a benefit to the user. The added weight lowers efficiency as well. Smaller packs can easily be charged overnight at home as needed.

Let's revisit that on the 21st after the pickup reveal.
 
SageBrush said:
On cue, Elon has announced via Twitter that Model 'S' will come with a larger pack next year.

Nothing useful will come of starting from what people "need." The question is how much do they want. That seems to be ~ 350 miles range year round.
The S Plaid certainly qualifies as a God Awful Fast Car with a Price Tag to match. north of $100K and probably closer to $120K. As for the pickup truck, I'd be surprised if it didn't have a 100KWH even in the base model with higher capacities available. After all it is supposed to haul stuff. It's going after the F150 market so it best be able to tow a horse trailer or 5th wheel at least 200-300 miles in the upper trim models. For a tradesman's truck, it won't need to tow often but that pickup bed is going to be full of tools and supplies plus a couple of hefty gents in the cab.

The fact remains that passenger cars don't need a 350 mile range. Especially if it costs the owner $5-10K more for the privilege. $30K ought to buy you a decent new car. Most people would have trouble adding 33% to that cost just for 75-100 more miles per charge. Volkswagen's ID3 is aimed at that market with a base price around $30,000 with a 48KWH battery. That might be too small for the US but is probably OK for Europe. The ID4 for the US will probably have a 60KWH battery as a base model and an extended range battery(rumored to be 82KWH) available. It will probably compete price wise with the Leaf+ and the model 3. Guesses put it at $35,000 less rebates.
 
A couple of observations. Well, maybe more like possibilities in the next decade:

An inexpensive AC charge controller that can communicate with home energy systems to arbitrage energy costs is currently available. Easy to install in any home environment and can pay for itself if you choose the right energy provider. Emerging bi-directional charge controllers will provide additional economic opportunities once EV manufacturers decide to have an upgrade of a bi-directional on-board charger - and warrant the battery under certain "smart charging" conditions. AC coupled nano-grids can be enhanced by this also.

DC fast charging (level 2+) may survive, but for those that must take longer highway trips and the charge networks are well established. Very expensive to install and maintain as they require 480 VAC installations. However, the DC protocols (level 1) are likely to be most valuable for DC coupled nano-grids (PV based) so that certain homes and most small business solar systems can use their vehicles as the battery energy storage for energy arbitrage. Also, they can then essentially go "off-grid" when needed for emergency/resiliency. SolarEdge (StoreEdge) and Pika Energy equipment support this scenario, but want to sell their own (expensive) energy storage. Again, "smart charging" will impose some limitations, but likely not serious.

As the electrical energy storage for EVs (whatever it might be) becomes larger, lighter and more accessible (V2X), it is possible that the grid's "duck curve" can be potentially eliminated - with renewables supported by EV energy actually providing a balance of day time energy with sufficient storage , then replenished by night time charging. Seems impossible, but if you do the math - absolutely not - as it has only to do with the number of EVs and their energy storage capabilities/usage.
 
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