Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

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DougWantsALeaf

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According to the DOE site today (some articles where quoting the information source)

Chademo Locations: 2,492 (Interesting that Chademo quotes 3,000 but I wonder if that counts the total number of station points as some locations have 2 or more stations/charging points at the location)

CCS Locations: 2,258

So, in spite of the joined forces of GM and Germany, CCS doesn't yet have numerical advantage. Guessing that will happen in a year or so given trends.

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC&ev_connectors=NEMA1450&ev_connectors=NEMA515&ev_connectors=NEMA520&ev_connectors=J1772&ev_connectors=CHADEMO&ev_levels=dc_fast
 
CHAdeMO has major disadvantages and deficiencies that the single number in the OP do not expose:

1. 50 kW or less power
2. Concentration in urban areas
3. Typically 1 - 2 taps per location
4. Frequent poor maintenance and out of service or unavailable.

For most EV owners today the point of a DC charging network is to enable reliable and convenient long distance driving. In the USA CHAdeMO is for the most part anything but since it was designed to support extended local driving with 24 kWh LEAFs.

CCS has been growing due to the EA expansion, and as a political sop EA adds ONE 50 kW CHAdeMO tap to locations that typically have 4 - 8, 150 - 350 kW CCS taps. Saying the CHAdeMO and CCS are equivalent at those locations is ridiculous.
 
CHAdeMO in the USA is in caretaker mode, and a neglected one at that.
I showed you the data from the AFDC database: of the last 200 CHAdeMO locations installed in the USA, 70% are from EA. Of the remainder I am willing to bet good money that with few exceptions, CHAdeMO is the step-child with one plug. I'm not sure about EVgo or Chargepoint but the EA installations put the CHAdeMO plug on a station that also has CCS and only one can be used at a time. How is that for a hint ? :lol:

I don't know how much more obvious the data can be.

Asia might be somewhat different, since Japan and China have agreed on a joint standard that will at least provide low power backwards compatibility with CHAdeMO but I cannot imagine it being competitive if the new standard is faster.

Europe has embraced Type II CCS. End of the CHAdeMO story there, it is in formal caretaker mode.
 
SageBrush said:
CHAdeMO has major disadvantages and deficiencies that the single number in the OP do not expose:

1. 50 kW or less power
2. Concentration in urban areas
3. Typically 1 - 2 taps per location
4. Frequent poor maintenance and out of service or unavailable.

For most EV owners today the point of a DC charging network is to enable reliable and convenient long distance driving. In the USA CHAdeMO is for the most part anything but since it was designed to support extended local driving with 24 kWh LEAFs.

CCS has been growing due to the EA expansion, and as a political sop EA adds ONE 50 kW CHAdeMO tap to locations that typically have 4 - 8, 150 - 350 kW CCS taps. Saying the CHAdeMO and CCS are equivalent at those locations is ridiculous.

Two more Chademo and two CCS stations opened up this week about 30 km away. All are 200 kw.
 
^^ And for you, Tesla just announced that their 50 kW CHAdeMO adapter is now compatible with Model 3.
 
webeleafowners said:
Two more Chademo and two CCS stations opened up this week about 30 km away. All are 200 kw.
Do you have a good reference for CHAdeMO at 200 kW at this location?

It can get tricky to figure out how fast a car will charge, as opposed to charger specs which may not even take the cable into account*.
And the media all too often get the physical units mixed up.

So far as I know, CHAdeMO requires a liquid cable to go over 200 Amps. If these stations do not have that cable then they probably peak at about 74 kW on CHAdeMO.

*
A good example of this is some of the "350 kW" CCS chargers. The number is calculated by multiplying the charger output maximums of 350 Amps and 1000 Volts. Of course no car on the road today can take 1000 Volts; and in fact if we exclude one future Porsche everything else is ~ 370 v nominal. So even if the cable can output 350 Amps and the car can take 350 Amps, those chargers peak power is ~ 0.35*370 = 130 kW
 
SageBrush said:
webeleafowners said:
Two more Chademo and two CCS stations opened up this week about 30 km away. All are 200 kw.
Do you have a good reference for CHAdeMO at 200 kW at this location?

It can get tricky to figure out how fast a car will charge, as opposed to charger specs which may not even take the cable into account*.
And the media all too often get their units mixed up.

So far as I know, CHAdeMO requires a liquid cable to go over 200 Amps. If these stations do not have that cable then they probably peak at about 74 kW on CHAdeMO.

*
A good example of this is some of the "350 kW" CCS chargers. The number is calculated by multiplying the charger output maximums of 350 Amps and 1000 Volts. Of course no car on the road today can take 1000 Volts; and in fact if we exclude one future Porsche everything else is ~ 370 v nominal. So even if the cable can output 350 Amps and the car can take 350 Amps, those chargers peak power is ~ 0.35*370 = 130 kW

That’s interesting info. I never realized how they calculated the station rating.

So nope. No good reference other than comments from the site user. I’ll be swinging by there in a week from Friday. I’ll see if I can get a shot of the plate on the charger. It’s on an excellent location. Food, coffee, 30 seconds off the highway and easy entrance back on the highway. It looks to me like they left enough room for two more combo stations.

BC is doing really good with their DCFC buildout. Four of the sites on the route north to Prince George come on line on July 31st.

Kinda cool to see the Chademo adapter out for the model 3 Tesla. Makes a model Y even more attractive for us when we replace the next car in a few years.
 
^^ It has taken me a long time to catch on because the media and manufacturer reports I read are not helpful. It comes down to knowing the voltage and amperage maxima * of each component * in the charging chain. The slowest component determines the fastest power delivery.

In CHAdeMO land it gets really messy.
Japan e.g., has a lot of chargers limited to 50 Amps (not sure about the cable, but the charger is the bottleneck)
The USA is overwhelmingly 100 Amp cables matched with 100 Amp chargers.
I gather that a handful of 200 Amp cables have been deployed. I presume that the charger is not the bottleneck for these locations but the car may be. E.g. my LEAF is limited to 100 Amps so it will continue to charge at its old rate of ~ 40 kW on these upgraded charger/cable installations.

Nowadays the charger is typically over-spec'd so either the cable or the car becomes the power limiter.
The other piece of this to understand has to do with voltage. The charger has been typically rated for 500 volts but the actual power output is dependent on the Amps flowing *and the voltage of the car battery.* In all non-custom EVs on the road today peak power occurs at peak Amps, and ~ 360 - 370 volts at the battery. So:

A '500 volt, 100 Amp, AKA 50 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 100*0.37 = 37 kW peak power
A '500 volt, 200 Amp, AKA 100 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 200*0.37 = 74 kW peak power

---
Which all makes the v3 Supercharger for Tesla a marvel. It can actually output ~ 240 kW when the battery is at ~ 350 volts, so ~ 685 Amps are flowing at that time. Specs that Tesla submitted to the EPA implied a maximum of 525 Amps but in retrospect that was a continuous rating.

--
It is a good idea to take a photo of the specs plate but see if you can sort out the charger from the charger+cable.
The maximum charger voltage does not matter since the car voltage sets charging voltage; the Amps will be informative.
 
SageBrush said:
^^ It has taken me a long time to catch on because the media and manufacturer reports I read are not informative. It comes down to knowing the voltage and amperage maxima * of each component * in the charging chain. The slowest component determines the fastest power delivery.

In CHAdeMO land it gets really messy.
Japan e.g., has a lot of chargers limited to 50 Amps (not sure about the cable, but the charger is the bottleneck)
The USA is overwhelmingly 100 Amp cables matched with 100 Amp chargers.
I gather that a handful of 200 Amp cables have been deployed. I presume that the charger is not the bottleneck for these locations but the car may be. E.g. my LEAF is limited to 100 Amps so it will continue to charge at its old rate of ~ 40 kW on these upgraded charger/cable installations.

Nowadays the charger is typically over-spec'd so either the cable or the car becomes the power limiter.
The other piece of this to understand has to do with voltage. The charger has been typically rated for 500 volts but the actual power output is dependent on the Amps flowing *and the voltage of the car battery.* In all non-custom EVs on the road today peak power occurs at peak Amps, and ~ 360 - 370 volts at the battery. So:

A '500 volt, 100 Amp, AKA 50 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 100*0.37 = 37 kW peak power
A '500 volt, 200 Amp, AKA 100 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 200*0.37 = 74 kW peak power

---
Which all makes the v3 Supercharger for Tesla a marvel. It can actually output ~ 240 kW when the battery is at ~ 350 volts, so ~ 685 Amps are flowing at that time. Specs that Tesla submitted to the EPA implied a maximum of 525 Amps but in retrospect that was a continuous rating.

You are definetly well studied up on this stuff. One of the reasons I think we took to EV’s so much is this kind of stuff. Much more interesting than a gas hose.

Thanks for the explanation. Will do on the spec plate and cable pics.
 
The 200 Amp CHAdeMO cable has turned out to be a problem for EA so they are all running at 100 Amps for now.
The CHAdeMO connectors are certified at 100kW at 200 amps, however we have de-rated those connectors to 50kW. The CHAdeMO connectors will stay de-rated until testing with all vehicles and adaptors are successfully completed.

The intent is to offer 100kW for electric vehicles in the future. As a clarification – all dual-CHAdeMO and CCS chargers are capable of 150kW on the CCS-side and capable of a 100kW on the CHAdeMO-side.

As previously explained the CHAdeMO is de-rated to 50kW. (And that is for ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet). Since the de-rating is done by software, we will enable the 100kW CHAdeMO connectors at new and existing chargers after sufficient testing.

Tesla delayed its Model 3 adapter for CHAdeMO for a long time, and it is now released with a 125 Amp max rating. I doubt the delay was simple coincidence. As for the actual problems -- no one is saying, least of all CHAdeMO. I'll be delighted if all parties can reach 200 Amps but more incompatibilities cropping up seems more likely. And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
 
SageBrush said:
And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
Source of information?

CHAdeMO chargers have been reliable for the 142 times I've used them for the 2014 LEAF. I also used them in the 2012 LEAF.

You have used CHAdeMO exactly how many times? 0, zero, isn't it?
 
I just bought a new Leaf Plus and am not impressed with CHAdeMO. I used an EVgo charger and my car was at 20%. You're limited to a 45 minute session and after that it turned off and my battery was only at 60%. From 20% - 50% it charged at 350V / 100A or 35KW. After 50% it started trickling down and when it turned off it was only charging at 20KW. I have no idea why it starting backing off after 50%, is that normal? The battery temperature looked fine. From this experience, I'd say that CHAdeMO is definitely not a good solution for traveling in a Leaf Plus.

Brian
 
SageBrush said:
...I'll be delighted if all parties can reach 200 Amps but more incompatibilities cropping up seems more likely. And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.

What is the typical failure mode of a CHAdeMO station? Is it a fault of the specification or just crappy implementation?
 
gtleaf said:
I just bought a new Leaf Plus and am not impressed with CHAdeMO. I used an EVgo charger and my car was at 20%. You're limited to a 45 minute session and after that it turned off and my battery was only at 60%. From 20% - 50% it charged at 350V / 100A or 35KW. After 50% it started trickling down and when it turned off it was only charging at 20KW. I have no idea why it starting backing off after 50%, is that normal? The battery temperature looked fine. From this experience, I'd say that CHAdeMO is definitely not a good solution for traveling in a Leaf Plus.

Brian

Not the fault of CHAdeMO.

EVgo (and others) have different chargers with different capabilities. There is a Chargepoint unit near where I used to work that was 20kW maximum. And the nameplate power on any charger isn't the power your car will actually draw. A 50kW charger may provide up to 500V and up to 100A (500V * 100A = 50kW), but your car's battery voltage at 20% charge will be well below 500V. The actual power you might draw would be close to 35kW. (Battery voltage * 100A), I'd expect a little more but not a lot more.

Leaf isn't a great road trip car... Great for a commute, or around town.
 
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