2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

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Equating the dealership experience to the manufacturer is a crap shoot. Having leased from 3 different dealers on my first 3 LEAFs, I ended going back to the 3rd one for my 4th despite them being located roughly 73 miles farther away than dealer #2 simply because it truly is and was a wonderful dealership experience.

I am not alone in this evaluation. Ray Raied Ishak at Everett Nissan is a joy to work with. On both my LEAF leases, the price was negotiated over FB IM and both times he hit his promised target within one dollar.

So you might have had fun with your Tesla transfer experience, but I had fun as well and saved thousands of dollars.

Now, nothing I said changes my mind about Tesla or the T3 which I still think (in SR form) is the best dollar for dollar purchase in the EV market today...(if it was a day that the SR was on sale)

In reality, as long as its an EV, its all good.
 
cwerdna said:
SalisburySam said:
However, there’s at least one factor not mentioned anywhere in this thread so I thought I’d add some raw meat to chew on: the dealership experience. Over decades of buying 23 vehicles, mostly new, I’ve not once left a dealership saying: “Gosh, that was a great and fabulous way to spend a few hours!” Nor have I ever thought: “Boy, I really got the best deal possible all in!” I loathe the waiting while the sales agent confers with their “managers” for special approvals, the trade-in banter, the mandatory trip behind the curtains with the finance dude or dudette (even when paying in full in cash) for the “opportunity” to buy gap coverage (er, for paying cash?), extended warranties, and on and on. In one case, it got so frustrating trying to actually buy a Lincoln we just walked out.

GM’s Saturn dealership model eliminated the pricing annoyance, but you still had to endure all the silliness with the finance folks.

O Great Day for me and people like me, assuming there are any! I can (and did) buy a Model 3 withOUT all of that grief...at home...on my porch...on a gorgeous Spring day...sitting at my iPad...having a shaken very dry vodka martini with olives...picking and choosing options...email signing some forms. For me, this lack of a dealership gauntlet to negotiate was a very key element in our Tesla decision. Having done that once, I really, really do not want to ever buy a new vehicle any other way.

I know this factor, the acquisition experience, is not a part of the OP comparison table, but for us it was an important discriminator that I haven’t seen mentioned. Maybe only important to me, and that’s fine.
Although the dealership experience can range from terrible to ok to good (I've had mostly good), Tesla's Model 3 delivery experience is all over the map. Some folks at my work had no issue (I haven't talked to many of them) but one had their vehicle scratched by the delivery person so it's been in the shop for weeks (!) to get that fixed. Another person had some delays.

A ton of people who have reserved 3's have been jerked around (e.g. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/the-delivery-canceled-no-reschedule-thread.129612/, https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/delivery-hotline-is-another-disaster.132661, https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/continued-delivery-issues.130826/ and a whole bunch of "waiting room" threads). While some folks have had the ordeal of cancellation, unknowns, etc. and are in the midst of those, a coworker ordered on a Tuesday, got a call Wednesday saying he could pick up as early as Sunday but since he was already going to be out of town (planned before), he picked up the following Wednesday. This was in early September 2018. This was all while others (usually outside the Bay Area) have been annoyed to pissed off w/the waiting game, missed dates, delivery specialists being MIA, etc.

Another guy at work got an email at 6 pm on Friday to go to https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-hundreds-delivered-stock-inbound/. He'd had a P3D on order for awhile and saw no movement. He scrambled to show up in the Saturday morning expecting to get nothing. He did drive away with a P3D that matched what he wanted w/a numerous exterior assembly defects (e.g. misaligned trunk, weird rear glass alignment probs, etc.)

One problem w/Tesla's model is that there's really no room for negotiation other than maybe the used car/trade in valuation or some discounts for inventory cars. The price is the price. If you paid MSRP at a dealer or whatever they were asking, you'd skip the negotiation step. Toyota Sunnyvale tends to openly advertise decent prices and when I last helped someone car shop there, they weren't really willing to budge.

I agree and it's why I've often wondered at why Tesla is as successful in its sales model as it is. If anyone else walked into a dealership today and paid the sticker price for a car, everyone would be telling them what an idiot they were. If someone says they ordered a Tesla online for the sticker price, everyone pats them on the back and says "well done".
 
tattoogunman said:
cwerdna said:
SalisburySam said:
However, there’s at least one factor not mentioned anywhere in this thread so I thought I’d add some raw meat to chew on: the dealership experience. Over decades of buying 23 vehicles, mostly new, I’ve not once left a dealership saying: “Gosh, that was a great and fabulous way to spend a few hours!” Nor have I ever thought: “Boy, I really got the best deal possible all in!” I loathe the waiting while the sales agent confers with their “managers” for special approvals, the trade-in banter, the mandatory trip behind the curtains with the finance dude or dudette (even when paying in full in cash) for the “opportunity” to buy gap coverage (er, for paying cash?), extended warranties, and on and on. In one case, it got so frustrating trying to actually buy a Lincoln we just walked out.

GM’s Saturn dealership model eliminated the pricing annoyance, but you still had to endure all the silliness with the finance folks.

O Great Day for me and people like me, assuming there are any! I can (and did) buy a Model 3 withOUT all of that grief...at home...on my porch...on a gorgeous Spring day...sitting at my iPad...having a shaken very dry vodka martini with olives...picking and choosing options...email signing some forms. For me, this lack of a dealership gauntlet to negotiate was a very key element in our Tesla decision. Having done that once, I really, really do not want to ever buy a new vehicle any other way.

I know this factor, the acquisition experience, is not a part of the OP comparison table, but for us it was an important discriminator that I haven’t seen mentioned. Maybe only important to me, and that’s fine.
Although the dealership experience can range from terrible to ok to good (I've had mostly good), Tesla's Model 3 delivery experience is all over the map. Some folks at my work had no issue (I haven't talked to many of them) but one had their vehicle scratched by the delivery person so it's been in the shop for weeks (!) to get that fixed. Another person had some delays.

A ton of people who have reserved 3's have been jerked around (e.g. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/the-delivery-canceled-no-reschedule-thread.129612/, https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/delivery-hotline-is-another-disaster.132661, https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/continued-delivery-issues.130826/ and a whole bunch of "waiting room" threads). While some folks have had the ordeal of cancellation, unknowns, etc. and are in the midst of those, a coworker ordered on a Tuesday, got a call Wednesday saying he could pick up as early as Sunday but since he was already going to be out of town (planned before), he picked up the following Wednesday. This was in early September 2018. This was all while others (usually outside the Bay Area) have been annoyed to pissed off w/the waiting game, missed dates, delivery specialists being MIA, etc.

Another guy at work got an email at 6 pm on Friday to go to https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-hundreds-delivered-stock-inbound/. He'd had a P3D on order for awhile and saw no movement. He scrambled to show up in the Saturday morning expecting to get nothing. He did drive away with a P3D that matched what he wanted w/a numerous exterior assembly defects (e.g. misaligned trunk, weird rear glass alignment probs, etc.)

One problem w/Tesla's model is that there's really no room for negotiation other than maybe the used car/trade in valuation or some discounts for inventory cars. The price is the price. If you paid MSRP at a dealer or whatever they were asking, you'd skip the negotiation step. Toyota Sunnyvale tends to openly advertise decent prices and when I last helped someone car shop there, they weren't really willing to budge.

I agree and it's why I've often wondered at why Tesla is as successful in its sales model as it is. If anyone else walked into a dealership today and paid the sticker price for a car, everyone would be telling them what an idiot they were. If someone says they ordered a Tesla online for the sticker price, everyone pats them on the back and says "well done".

you're insinuating that we're just all fanboys?

Saturn had pretty good success with fixed pricing. People just don't like haggling, but they don't like being ripped off either. If everyone pays the same price, then it's fair for all.

It's not that Tesla's model treats us all as chumps (since everyone expects a product manufacturer to make some profit), it's that the franchise dealership model introduces a rent seeking middleman that everyone wants to minimize in their car buying math.

it's the farmer's market vs. grocery store model.
 
Any comparison between the Leaf and the Tesla... should include the number of Vehicle Fires !

It is impossible to find an incinerated Leaf... while the internet abounds with pictures and stories of Teslas burned right down to the
ground.

The gazillion cell pack architecture.. as well as some other poor engineering factors are involved.

The whole Tesla mindset seems to be the electrical equivalent of the Gas Guzzler..
and the driving behavior of many Tesla owners follows suit.

The other factor in favor of the Leaf is progressive development and longevity of the platform
Ala VW. No one knows what the leaf will be when it is self driving enabled.. but the basis of the platform
is extremely well proven, and safe.

Heated seats and wheel are extremely common on SVs... perhaps as options.. but hard to find an example without them.
 
blimpy said:
Any comparison between the Leaf and the Tesla...

...should be between vehicles that exist. Still not one SR delivery in the entire world. Meanwhile, I’ve racked up 26,000km on my Leaf with approximately 3% degredation.
 
And I've racked up 53000 miles and am on my second battery which is down 5% in six months. Outliers don't really count.
 
This graph covers the ~ 2 yrs I have owned my 2013 LEAF. I suspect that that the car came with a reset and then settled down to about 20 kWh capacity. Degradation since then has been pretty modest and actually within the optimistic predictions of Nissan. If my anecdote can be generalized it suggests that a cool climate along with battery pampering can result in a reasonably long-lived car and battery.

uc


The Ahr data is obtained from LeafSpy at a SoC in the 50-70% range and multiplied by 350 v for my convenience since I like to view kWh.
 
blimpy said:
Any comparison between the Leaf and the Tesla... should include the number of Vehicle Fires !

It is impossible to find an incinerated Leaf... while the internet abounds with pictures and stories of Teslas burned right down to the
ground.

The gazillion cell pack architecture.. as well as some other poor engineering factors are involved.

The whole Tesla mindset seems to be the electrical equivalent of the Gas Guzzler..
and the driving behavior of many Tesla owners follows suit.

The other factor in favor of the Leaf is progressive development and longevity of the platform
Ala VW. No one knows what the leaf will be when it is self driving enabled.. but the basis of the platform
is extremely well proven, and safe.

Heated seats and wheel are extremely common on SVs... perhaps as options.. but hard to find an example without them.


Believe me there have been plenty they just don't all make the news. Tesla makes VERY the most efficient EVs and not everyone drives the way you believe. Nissans platform is antiquated as it was never a true ground up platform and it' design is also less safe than a Tesla and has more-restrictive packaging in the battery compartment and significant wasted space.
 
SageBrush said:
This graph covers the ~ 2 yrs I have owned my 2013 LEAF. I suspect that that the car came with a reset and then settled down to about 20 kWh capacity. Degradation since then has been pretty modest and actually within the optimistic predictions of Nissan. If my anecdote can be generalized it suggests that a cool climate along with battery pampering can result in a reasonably long-lived car and battery.

uc


The Ahr data is obtained from LeafSpy at a SoC in the 50-70% range and multiplied by 350 v for my convenience since I like to view kWh.

Great stats but the reality is the 24 kwh pack simply does not provide the range most want and allow sensible BMS options from the end user.

40 kwh would be great but again, its 100% or self management which is fine for me but most don't seem to understand the importance or see the need which is unfortunate. Such a small easy thing...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
the reality is the 24 kwh pack simply does not provide the range most want and allow sensible BMS options from the end user.

40 kwh would be great
The reality is that ymmv. I find 40 kWh to be neither here nor there. Too much to be an inexpensive, get around town car; too little to be a general purpose car. My family does very well with out 19ish kWh LEAF and 75ish kWh Tesla Model 3.

My corner of Colorado is getting its first DCFC stations "soon" courtesy of VW settlement money. I don't know if I will ever use them but I'm glad to have one more back-up available if needed. Maybe it was worth paying for that CHadeMo port after all.

I feel sorry for the fellow who used to post here from Gunnison, CO and sold his LEAF when he could not find charging that would let him commute. His highway is on the EA map.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
the reality is the 24 kwh pack simply does not provide the range most want and allow sensible BMS options from the end user.

40 kwh would be great
The reality is that ymmv. I find 40 kWh to be neither here nor there. Too much to be an inexpensive, get around town car; too little to be a general purpose car. My family does very well with out 19ish kWh LEAF and 75ish kWh Tesla Model 3.

My corner of Colorado is getting its first DCFC stations "soon" courtesy of VW settlement money. I don't know if I will ever use them but I'm glad to have one more back-up available if needed. Maybe it was worth paying for that CHadeMo port after all.

I feel sorry for the fellow who used to post here from Gunnison, CO and sold his LEAF when he could not find charging that would let him commute. His highway is on the EA map.

Another issue; We have all but failed to find a unifying platform to build out an EV Highway. But our government does not do much of anything unless its a clear benefit to them and with so many elected officials riding in on oil money, EVs have to start a mile behind the starting line...
 
Hey, this thread is finally relevant!

Congrats to all EV fans. This is a big day. And Elon said he’s going to try to bring the price down even further in just two more years. Good stuff.
 
SageBrush said:
I started this table in another thread but I think it has reached a point where I can bring it out to full light. As more information or errors emerge I'll update this OP. Please refrain from quoting the table since I have no way of updating the table in a quote.

Last updated: 1/25/2018, 20:34 MST
Change log:
1/25: Auto Emergency braking added to 'S' and 'SV' models
3/14: AEB speed differences noted

<snip>

Looks like you should add the $37K with the upgraded interior because there are some checkbox differences.

Little table from SolarExec on gm-volt.com
Code:
Model    US Range       Price Ex Incentive    Comments
SR       220 Miles      $35,000 Standard Interior
SR Plus  240 Miles      $37,000 Upgraded Interior
MR RWD   264 Miles      $40,000 Premium Interior
LR RWD   325 Miles      $43,000 Premium Interior
LR AWD   310 Miles      $47,000 Plus All-Wheel-Drive
Perform. 310 Miles      $58,000 Plus Insanely Quick
Shivetya on gm-volt.com
Code:
Standard Interior Includes:
    Manual seat and steering adjustment
    Cloth seats and base trim
    Basic audio
    Standard maps and navigation
    Center console with storage and 4 USB ports

Partial Premium Interior Includes:
    12-way power adjustable heated front seats
    Premium seat material and trim
    Upgraded audio – immersive sound
    Standard maps & navigation
    LED fog lamps
    Center console with storage, 4 USB ports and docking for 2 smartphones

Premium Interior Includes:
    12-way power adjustable front and rear heated seats
    Premium audio – 14 speakers, 1 subwoofer, 2 amps, and immersive sound
    Satellite-view maps with live traffic visualization and navigation
    In-car internet streaming music & media
    Internet browser
    Location-aware automatic garage door opener
    LED fog lamps
    Center console with storage, 4 USB ports and docking for 2 smartphones

All Interiors Include:
    Tinted glass roof with ultraviolet and infrared protection
    Auto dimming, power folding, heated side mirrors
    Music and media over Bluetooth ®
    Custom driver profiles
 
SageBrush said:
scottf200 said:
Looks like you should add ]
Table updated in the opening post. Please delete my old table in your post, thanks.

Just a note. With the base interior I don’t believe you get any heated seats.
If the “six way seats” are powered seats, the base interior doesn’t have that either.
 
Zythryn said:
SageBrush said:
scottf200 said:
Looks like you should add ]
Table updated in the opening post. Please delete my old table in your post, thanks.

Just a note. With the base interior I don’t believe you get any heated seats.
If the “six way seats” are powered seats, the base interior doesn’t have that either.
Thanks, I'll look into it later.
 
Agree with request of adding the standard range plus $37,000 Model 3 to the table as well as the Leaf eplus models which should also be delivered this month.
 
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