Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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Thats one of the things that made me laugh about hydrogen. People like to say it's only byproduct is water.
Since currently the only way to make it economically right now completely depends on fossil fuels, that's kind of funny.
But this seems to be very well understood here.
 
It doesn't necessarily need to be more efficient than SMR, just the same price or cheaper. In addition to the high-temp electrolysis research mentioned, There's also a lot of research on photo and thermo-chemical production, but as with all such research, who knows if or when it will be commercialized. See https://www.greencarcongress.com/hydrogen_production/

for numerous articles about R&D.
 
GCC:
Saudi Aramco and Air Products to build Saudi Arabia’s first hydrogen fuel cell vehicle fueling station; operational 2Q19
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/01/20190128-aramco.html

. . . Saudi Aramco and Air Products will establish a pilot fleet of fuel cell vehicles for which high-purity compressed hydrogen will be dispensed at the new fueling station.

Air Products’ proprietary SmartFuel hydrogen fueling technology will be incorporated into the new station to supply the vehicles with compressed hydrogen. The collected data during this pilot phase of the project will provide valuable information for the assessment of future applications of this emerging transport technology in the local environment. . . .

The hydrogen refueling station will be located within the grounds of Air Products Technology Center in the Dhahran Techno Valley Science Park.

Toyota Motor Corporation will supply Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicles for testing in this pilot project.
Presumably SMR, but it doesn't say.
 
GCC:
Yara and ENGIE to test green hydrogen technology in fertilizer production
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190217-yaraengie.html

SQL errors, so I can't quote. Using green H2 instead of methane for ammonia production.


Also GCC:
Hyundai Mobis uses 5 Nexo fuel cell modules for emergency power generation system
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190214-mobis.html

Hyundai Mobis has connected 5 Nexo hydrogen fuel cells systems to form a power generation system with a maximum capacity of 450kW for use at its Chungju Plant. The system can deliver about 7% of the total power consumption of the Chungju Plant and can be used in emergencies or during peak time.

Hyundai Mobis has begun operating the hydrogen system on a pilot basis.

Hyundai Mobis used the Nexo fuel cell modules as is, and separately developed the parallel controller, thermal management system and uninterruptible power supply system (UPS), necessary for the power generator.

As many fuel cell modules as necessary can be connected to deliver the required emergency power and auxiliary power, which varies depending on the size of the building.

Starting with the pilot operation in the Chungju Plant, Hyundai Mobis is planning to install more emergency hydrogen power generation systems in other production bases at home and abroad.
 
GCC:
Industry group signs MOU to develop and test hydrogen fueling hardware for heavy-duty vehicles
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190221-h2.html

Hydrogen suppliers & fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) automakers, Air Liquide, Hyundai, NEL, Nikola Motor, Shell and Toyota have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) for hydrogen fueling components for the purpose of testing state-of-the-art heavy duty (HD) hydrogen fueling hardware to assist in standardization and speed to market for fuel cell electric trucks.

Under the MOU, the cross-industry group of both vehicle and infrastructure companies will test pre-commercial 70MPa hydrogen heavy duty vehicle high flow (H70HF) fueling hardware for future Class 8 (40 Ton) trucks.

The industry group has created specifications for the fueling nozzle, vehicle receptacle, dispenser hose and breakaway device components for this HD application for the purpose of developing Request for Proposals to suppliers.

This industry group is requesting notification of suppliers’ intent to participate in a pre-commercial development and test program designed specifically for this fueling hardware. The fueling hardware samples will undergo performance tests in accordance with the appropriate SAE/ISO/CSA industry standards along with additional aspects for this emerging market. . . .

The partners are looking for fueling hardware suppliers interested in submitting proposals for this area. Any supplier interested in submitting a quotation for the pre-commercial HD Hydrogen Fueling Hardware development project should send an email by 4 March 2019 to: [email protected].

Also GCC:
Ballard participating in H2PORTS project to demo hydrogen as alternative fuel in European ports; FCmove-HD
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190221-ballard.html

Ballard Power Systems is participating in the H2PORTS project, which is aimed at facilitating a rapid transition at European ports from fossil fuels to low-carbon, zero-emission alternatives based on hydrogen and fuel cells. (Earlier post.)

Earlier this month participants held the first technical meeting of the H2PORTS project, which is being coordinated by Valenciaport Foundation in close collaboration with the Port Authority of Valencia.

The project will test and validate hydrogen technologies for port machinery in order to achieve solutions that produce zero local emissions, without affecting the performance and safety of port operations. H2PORTS will allow these new prototypes to be demonstrated at the Grimaldi and MSC terminals in the Port of Valencia, which will become the first European port to incorporate hydrogen energy to reduce the environmental impact of its operations.

The H2PORTS project involves three pilot initiatives to bridge the gap between prototypes and pre-commercial products: (i) a fuel-cell-powered Reach Stacker for loading, unloading and transporting containers; (ii) a fuel-cell-powered Terminal Tractor for roll-on/roll-off shipping operations; and (iii) a Mobile Hydrogen Refueling Station to support this equipment.

The project will also carry out feasibility studies on the development of a sustainable hydrogen supply chain, coordinating all stakeholders including customers, hydrogen producers, and suppliers.

Ballard will provide the company's next-generation fuel cell module—the FCmove-HD, which is planned for commercial launch in mid-2019—to power the Reach Stacker. . . .

In addition to the Valenciaport Foundation, the Port Authority of Valencia, and Ballard Power Systems Europe A/S, other participants in H2PORTS include the Centro Nacional del Hidrógeno (National Hydrogen Centre), MSC Terminal Valencia, the Grimaldi Group, Hyster-Yale, Atena and Enagás.

H2PORTS will entail a total investment of €4 million, including European funding provided by the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH JU) program. . . .
 
GCC:
Air Liquide, Idex, STEP, Toyota create HysetCo to promote development of hydrogen mobility in Paris region; 600 Hype H2 taxis by the end of 2020
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190222-hysetco.html

Air Liquide, Idex, Société du Taxi Électrique Parisien (STEP), and Toyota are teaming up through a joint-venture called HysetCo, the first company devoted to the development of hydrogen mobility in the Paris region.

This collaboration represents a milestone in the emergence of a hydrogen-based society in France and in the development of Hype, the world’s first fleet of zero-emission hydrogen-powered taxis, launched in 2015 during the COP21 and operated in Paris and throughout the Île-de-France region.

HysetCo will make it easier to roll out hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and their recharging infrastructure within the Île-de-France region in order to reach the objective of 600 taxis by the end of 2020. Toyota will deliver an additional 500 Mirais by the end of 2020, which will complete the existing fleet of 100 Hype vehicles.

This joint-venture covers two activities: The distribution of hydrogen and the development of mobility-related applications, with each stakeholder bringing their own expertise within this ecosystem.

The organization’s mission is to promote the sector's transition towards zero emissions, with an objective of “zero emissions for taxis/VTCs by the 2024 Paris Olympic Games”.

Hype’s fleet of taxis will also be able to rely on a wider network of charging stations, following the recent opening of a new recharging point in Roissy, near Paris-Charles-de-Gaulle airport, which joins the existing ones (Paris-Orly, Les-Loges-en-Josas, and Pont de l’Alma). This hydrogen station in Roissy was designed and built by Air Liquide with the support of the FCH JU (Fuel Cells And Hydrogen Joint Undertaking) public-private partnership. . . .
There are posts upthread (e.g. 6/6/2016) related to this.
 
Both GCC:
Air Liquide selects Hydrogenics for 20MW electrolyzer for hydrogen production; largest PEM electrolyzer in world
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190226-airliquide.html

Air Liquide will build in Canada the largest PEM (Proton-Exchange Membrane) electrolyzer in the world with a 20 megawatts (MW) capacity for the production of low-carbon hydrogen (the facility will use hydropower).

Air Liquide will install a 20 MW electrolyzer that increases by 50% the current capacity of its hydrogen facility located in Bécancour, Québec. The facility is expected to be in commercial operation by the end of 2020, with an output of just under 3,000 tons of hydrogen annually. . . .

This new production unit will significantly reduce carbon intensity compared to the traditional hydrogen production process. Emissions of nearly 27,000 tonnes of CO2 per year, equivalent to those of about 10,000 sedan cars per year, will then be prevented.

Becancour’s proximity to major industrial markets in Canada and the United States will help ensure North America’s supply of low-carbon hydrogen for both industry and mobility usage. . . .

Nel ASA to supply 2MW PEM electrolyzer in Switzerland; 30 MW framework contract for Hyundai hydrogen trucks
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190226-nel.html

SQL errors prevent quoting.
 
This seems to be at the Dem/Val stage as opposed to just another lab experiment. Via GCC:

KU Leuven team creates solar panel that produces hydrogen from moisture in air\
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/03/20190308-kul.html

Bioscience engineers at KU Leuven have created a solar panel that produces hydrogen gas from moisture in the air. After ten years of development, the panel can now produce 250 liters per day—a world record, according to the researchers. Twenty of these solar panels could provide electricity and heat for one family for an entire winter.

A traditional solar panel converts between 18 to 20% of the solar energy into electricity. If that electric power is used to split the water into hydrogen gas and oxygen, you lose a lot of energy. The KU Leuven bioscience engineers solved this problem by designing a solar panel of 1.6 m² that converts 15% of the sunlight straight into hydrogen gas.

  • It’s a unique combination of physics and chemistry. In the beginning, the efficiency was only 0.1 per cent, and barely any hydrogen molecules were formed. Today, you see them rising to the surface in bubbles. So that’s ten years of work—always making improvements, detecting problems. That’s how you get results.

    —Professor Johan Martens

    Twenty of these panels produce enough heat and electricity to get through the winter in a thoroughly insulated house and still have power left. Add another twenty panels, and you can drive an electric car for an entire year.

    —KU Leuven researcher Jan Rongén. . . .

The solar panel will be under test in Oud-Heverlee, a rural town in Flemish Brabant. The house we visit is well insulated and gets most of its power from solar panels, a solar boiler, and a heat pump. It is not connected to the gas grid. It only uses power from the grid in the winter.

Soon, 20 hydrogen gas panels will be added to this mix. If all goes well, more panels will be installed on a piece of land in the street. This will allow the other 39 families in the street to benefit from the project as well. The hydrogen gas produced in the summer will be stored and converted into electricity and heat in the winter.

The hydrogen gas produced in the summer can be stored in an underground pressure vessel until winter. One family would need about 4 cubic meters of storage—the size of a regular oil tank. . .

  • We wanted to design something sustainable that is affordable and can be used practically anywhere. We’re using cheap raw materials and don't need precious metals or other expensive components.

    —Johan Martens

The actual cost of the hydrogen gas panels is still unknown, as the mass production is yet to start. The researchers, however, say that it should be affordable. The emphasis will not so much be on large production units, but rather on the combination of smaller, local systems. It will also require less energy-guzzling transport of energy, whether it’s gas, oil, or electricity.

Last week, Toyota announced that it wants to produce hydrogen gas with a prototype designed by Johan Martens’s team in 2014. This device is a little screen (10 cm2) that the engineers will scale up to a large panel.
 
GCC:
S. Korea launches new company to lead construction of hydrogen fueling infrastructure; 100 stations by 2022
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/03/20190311-hynet.html

South Korea’s Ministry of Trade, Industry and Energy (MOTIE) announced that 13 hydrogen-related companies, including Hyundai Motor, are partnering to launch a special purpose corporation (SPC), named HyNet, to drive the construction of hydrogen refueling infrastructure in the country.

HyNet, with an investment of US$119 million (134 billion KRW) has the goal of building out 100 hydrogen stations by 2022—one-third of the Korean government’s target to build a total of 310 stations across the country by the same year.

HyNet will use the initial investment and subsidies from the Ministry of Environment—1.5 billion KRW (US$1.3 million) for each station, to build the infrastructure. . . .
 
There's some interesting info re the relative capital costs of H2 refueling per event versus QC/event as well as BEV versus FCEV breakeven per trip distance for trucks, in a McKinsey report on mobility transitions (see https://www.mckinsey.com/industries...34&hdpid=9376ba28-11da-47b7-839a-4521787ac6d6):

Hydrogen cars or battery electric vehicles—why not both?

Battery-powered electric vehicles (EVs) are not the only alternative to cars with internal-combustion engines. Vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells have already begun trickling into select markets across Asia, Europe, and North America. While significant technical and infrastructure challenges remain, hydrogen offers several advantages over batteries. For starters, hydrogen vehicles fuel up relatively quickly—about 15 times faster than battery-powered EVs that use so-called fast-charging technology. Hydrogen refueling is also half as capital intensive as EV fast charging and requires about ten times less space (exhibit). In addition, EV fast-charger stations next to highways can easily require several power lines carrying multiple megawatts of electricity to cover peak load, but more flexible sources of renewable energy can power hydrogen fuel cells. And while battery-powered vehicles have significant consequences for natural resources—particularly cobalt, nickel, and lithium—hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.

Producing hydrogen, however, is costly, and at present fuel-cell vehicles are less commercially viable than EVs in most use cases. But heavier vehicles require heavier batteries; and the heavier the payload and the longer the range, the greater the opportunity for hydrogen power. A hydrogen-powered 40-ton semitruck, for example, when produced at scale, draws even with a battery-powered truck in system costs at slightly more than 100 kilometers of operation and allows for approximately three tons more payload as well. All this suggests that hydrogen vehicles and EVs could become complements in an increasingly decarbonized future. . . .
 
GCC:
JAXA and Toyota may partner further on space exploration; making future lunar mobility a reality; fuel cell vehicles
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/03/20190313-jaxatmc.html

. . . As a first step, JAXA and Toyota have reached agreement to further cooperate on and to accelerate their ongoing joint study of a manned, pressurized rover that employs fuel cell electric vehicle technologies.

Such a form of mobility is deemed necessary for human exploration activities on the lunar surface. Even with the limited amount of energy that can be transported to the moon, the pressurized rover would have a total lunar-surface cruising range of more than 10,000 km (6,214 miles). . . .

Manned, pressurized rovers will be an important element supporting human lunar exploration, which JAXA envisions will take place in the 2030s; it aim is launching such a rover into space in 2029, said JAXA Vice President Koichi Wakata.

  • Lunar gravity is one-sixth of that on Earth. Meanwhile, the moon has a complex terrain with craters, cliffs, and hills. Moreover, it is exposed to radiation and temperature conditions that are much harsher than those on Earth, as well as an ultra-high vacuum environment. For wide ranging human exploration of the moon, a pressurized rover that can travel more than 10,000 km in such environments is a necessity. . . .

Back on Earth, also GCC:
Faurecia and Michelin to consolidate hydrogen fuel cell efforts in new joint venture Symbio
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/03/20190313-symbio.html

. . . Symbio, a Faurecia Michelin Hydrogen Company will be owned equally by Faurecia and Michelin. This French joint venture will develop, produce and market hydrogen fuel cell systems for light vehicles, utility vehicles, trucks and other applications. . . .
 
LeftieBiker said:
Even with the limited amount of energy that can be transported to the moon

Until we start exploring the darker regions of the Moon, there is plenty of energy already available there.
The photo of the model does include a roll-out solar shade which could provide power when parked, but I suspect lifting the weight of batteries as well as the long recharge times would make a BEV a non-starter given the range requirements. NASA's Lunar Rover was a far cry from this in range, weight and capability:
On Apollo 15 the LRV was driven a total of 27.8 km in 3 hours, 2 minutes of driving time. The longest single traverse was 12.5 km and the maximum range from the LM was 5.0 km. On Apollo 16 the vehicle traversed 26.7 km in 3 hours 26 minutes of driving. The longest traverse was 11.6 km and the LRV reached a distance of 4.5 km from the LM. On Apollo 17 the rover went 35.9 km in 4 hours 26 minutes total drive time. The longest traverse was 20.1 km and the greatest range from the LM was 7.6 km.

The Lunar Roving Vehicle had a mass of 210 kg and was designed to hold a payload of an additional 490 kg on the lunar surface. The frame was 3.1 meters long with a wheelbase of 2.3 meters. The maximum height was 1.14 meters. . . .

Power was provided by two 36-volt silver-zinc potassium hydroxide non-rechargeable batteries with a capacity of 121 amp-hr.
https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_lrv.html
 
GRA said:
There's some interesting info re the relative capital costs of H2 refueling per event versus QC/event as well as BEV versus FCEV breakeven per trip distance for trucks, in a McKinsey report on mobility transitions (see https://www.mckinsey.com/industries...34&hdpid=9376ba28-11da-47b7-839a-4521787ac6d6):

Hydrogen cars or battery electric vehicles—why not both?

Battery-powered electric vehicles (EVs) are not the only alternative to cars with internal-combustion engines. Vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells have already begun trickling into select markets across Asia, Europe, and North America. While significant technical and infrastructure challenges remain, hydrogen offers several advantages over batteries. For starters, hydrogen vehicles fuel up relatively quickly—about 15 times faster than battery-powered EVs that use so-called fast-charging technology. Hydrogen refueling is also half as capital intensive as EV fast charging and requires about ten times less space (exhibit). In addition, EV fast-charger stations next to highways can easily require several power lines carrying multiple megawatts of electricity to cover peak load, but more flexible sources of renewable energy can power hydrogen fuel cells. And while battery-powered vehicles have significant consequences for natural resources—particularly cobalt, nickel, and lithium—hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.
The word "(exhibit)" above refers to a chart which indicates that QC infrastructure for BEVs costs about 7.6 Euros per refueling and H2 refueling infrastructure only costs about 3.6 Euros per refueling. I won't bother to question these numbers, as I suspect they can be supported reasonably well.

That said, I WILL point out that McKinsey's analysts are either being extremely deceptive with the bolded statements or they are idiots or both. I hope everyone here (except perhaps for GRA who posted and bolded that statement) can see why: An H2 FCV can ONLY be charged by an H2 refueling station, while the typical BEV is charged using QC infrastructure for only about 1% of its refueling, if that. For the other 99% of the time, a BEV is recharged using infrastructure using an extremely low cost L2 home charger. In my personal case, the BEV L2 charging infrastructure in my home cost about $1000 to install and it has fully refueled the vehicle about 650 times (using 100 miles per recharge as the standard to try to match to what might be used for an H2 FCV). In other words, the REAL per-refueling capital costs for BEVs are much lower than those of H2 FCVs, even using the 3.6 Euros per refueling number.

A more direct comparison indicates that my capital cost for refueling my vehicle compares directly against about $12,000 per vehicle that it costs to provide H2 infrastructure, as I have calculated several times much earlier in this thread.

And that is just the capital cost comparison. The cost of the fuel is also drastically lower for the BEV.

Simply put, comparing the per-refueling costs of FC infrastructure with per-refueling costs of H2 infrastructure is a fools game, intended to deceive rather than to educate the public.
GRA said:
Producing hydrogen, however, is costly, and at present fuel-cell vehicles are less commercially viable than EVs in most use cases. But heavier vehicles require heavier batteries; and the heavier the payload and the longer the range, the greater the opportunity for hydrogen power. A hydrogen-powered 40-ton semitruck, for example, when produced at scale, draws even with a battery-powered truck in system costs at slightly more than 100 kilometers of operation and allows for approximately three tons more payload as well. All this suggests that hydrogen vehicles and EVs could become complements in an increasingly decarbonized future. . . .
There is a wholly-unsupported statement by the authors. In actuality, the H2 FCV truck will cost much more to build, much more to fuel and much more to maintain than the BEV truck. Given that, there is not any crossover mileage at which point the H2 truck will ever have comparable costs. Instead, the H2 truck will cost more to purchase and that drawback will compound itself as the vehicle is used.

All in all, it seems McKinsey & Company are in the business of producing BS in support of H2 as a transportation fuel.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Even with the limited amount of energy that can be transported to the moon

Until we start exploring the darker regions of the Moon, there is plenty of energy already available there.

For two weeks at a time, anyways. A permanent base or vehicle used for excursions longer than 2 weeks would need a way of being powered through the night. A fuel cell + electrolyser setup would be a sort of hydrogen - oxygen flow battery.
 
The magic hydrogen fueling station that costs almost nothing and seems to create energy almost out of thin air must use natural gas.
 
Oilpan4 said:
The magic hydrogen fueling station that costs almost nothing and seems to create energy almost out of thin air must use natural gas.
As the numbers are in Euros and the distances in km, more likely it's excess wind. but what do you find hard to believe that the capital cost per fueling would be lower for an H2 station? After all, each hose can service more vehicles in a given period of time than any single QC can, and costs are coming down as the number of sites has increased, the number of filling points per station has increased allowing BoS costs to be spread more widely, companies gain more experience, and the equipment improves. As for overall costs, given the choice of Euros I suspect they're comparing European prices for fuel and electricity, which are much higher than here in the U.S. owing to taxes and subsidies (especially for renewable feed-in tariffs, although those are coming down now).

In the U.S., the relative fuel costs are far different, although total costs for commercial use will also be calculated based on the lifetime of the system. Fuel cells are already achieving the DoE's target of 25,000 hour lifetimes, and if a comparable BEV needs to have its pack replaced one or more times during the vehicle lifetime, that alters the economics considerably. H2 prices here still need to come down a lot. But, as I've said before, arguing about the economics here is silly, because the companies who will choose one type of vehicle over the other will calculate LCC very closely before making a decision.
 
What is the efficiency of electricity to hydrogen conversion?
I'm assuming that's where this is going.

Ultimately what is the cost per mile going to be with hydrogen?
 
A little over two years ago I spoke with a friend about his experience with H2 forklift refueling and I posted about what he told me. I concluded with the following:
RegGuheert on February 20 said:
It looks like there are real applications in the forklift industry (inside a freezer, for instance), but it seems to me that there is lots of room in that market for Li-ion batteries that has not yet been addressed.
It seems I was not alone in that assessment. A CA company named Flux Power was founded to address the space in the forklift market which is not well addressed by lead-acid batteries. It seems they are experiencing triple-digit YOY growth on their first-generation Li-ion battery offerings.

It will be interesting to see if their success continues. Given that both H2 and Li-ion each only have a small portion of the forklift market and both offer benefits over lead-acid batteries, I expect both technologies will continue to grow rapidly in this space for the next few years. But they will soon be competing for the same customers. I suspect each will have clear benefits over the other depending on the customer situation. Here are a few thoughts about what will weigh heavily in customers' decisions:

Benefits of H2 fuel cells in forklifts:
- Faster refueling: 3 minutes per shift versus 1 hour per shift (could be significant for two- or three-shift operations)
- No loss of power as fuel is used like is experienced with batteries (Li-ion is better than lead-acid, but H2 wins here)
- Available in 48V version for forklifts (both are available in 36V versions)

Benefits of Li-ion batteries in forklifts:
- Cheaper refueling infrastructure (In fact, these batteries are compatible with existing lead-acid recharging equipment)
- Cheaper fuel: In most cases, MUCH cheaper fuel.
- Likely higher reliability (H2 systems are simply much more complicated)
- Available in 24V versions for hand trucks (perhaps Plug Power has a similar offering?)
- Wider operating temperature range (both on the low and high ends, though I suspect you would not want to operation Li-ion batteries on the high end of the range given)

Specifications which are comparable:
- Runtime with a single refueling (using 75% DOD for the Li-ion batteries and 40% efficiency on the fuel cells gives about the same electrical energy output for similar-size products)

Characteristics which I cannot compare:
- Unit cost (though only the Li-ion battery says they provide lower lifetime costs than lead-acid batteries)
- Unit lifetime (Li-ion batteries are specified for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD and 3000 cycles at 70% DOD)

For reference, here are datasheets for the products which I am comparing:
- Datasheet for the Plug Power GenDrive 1000
- Datasheet for the Flux Power X-Series Li-ion Forklift Batteries
 
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