DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15554
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:22 am

rikus11 wrote:New owner of a 2017 S Leaf up here in Chicago area. Little concerned at a recent drop off in Ahr and SOH. I know it is really early but it seems to have happened really recently which makes me nervous about what is to come. Wondering if I am a victim of the dreaded "sat on the dealer lot all summer at 100%" phenomenon. It certainly isn't Phoenix hot but I am not sure at what point is too hot to sit at 100%.

Build date is 3/17. Purchased new 9/12/17 with 30 mi on odometer.

First leaf spy on 9/17
9/17/17 375 odo Ahr 80.513 SOH 100% Hx 96.15 2QC (done by dealer) 13L1/L2
9/21/17 745 odo Ahr 81.340 SOH 100% Hx 97.26 2QC 21 L1/L2
9/26/17 1205 odo Ahr 81.960 SOH 100% Hx 97.97 2QC 36 L1/L2
10/06/17 2132 odo Ahr 79.353 SOH 99% Hx 95.02 3QC 58 L1/L2
10/13/17 2684 odo Ahr 78.113 SOH 98% Hx 93.41 3QC 71 L1/L2
10/17/18 3026 odo Ahr 77.644 SOH 97% Hx 92.71 3QC 78 L1/L2

It all seemed to start to fall after the quick charge I did between 9/26 and 10/6. It was just a hook up to make sure I could access the network in case I need to use them in a emergency in the future. Charged from 44% to 80% in 15 min and then stopped the charging.

Charging Habits:
Common charging practices are L1 charging overnight most nights. I have L2 charging at work so I will usually charge a couple of hours during the day right before heading home from work. Usually at least once a week arrive at work with 20-40% charge and then charge to 100% on the L2. I time it so that it is done charging close to the time I leave for the day. Charged to 100% several times with the L1 at home. usually on the weekend since it will have more time to sit on the charger. I try to keep it between 20-95% as much as I can. If I remember correctly the battery temp got to around 93F during the quick charge and I think that is the hottest I have seen so far.

I will update since I know I am really early just a little concerned that the SOH and Ahr are starting to drop fairly dramatically in the first few thousand miles.
Way too early to tell and so far, you aren't really that close to what others have experienced. There is one guy who dropped to 89% in a few months but also suspects he never was more than 96-97% when new.

As you saw, charging/driving habits will bounce your numbers around so anything +/- 3 is realistically meaningless. check my blog. I purposely manipulated my numbers several times just because.

You have LEAF Spy, start a log track your numbers every day. Now tracking every day does not mean analyze every day. I would analyze no more often than once a month. Sounds like a lot of work but it takes me all of 30 seconds every morning to launch LEAF Spy, take the readings and reset my trip Odo for the day. As far as charting you can log what you want. On mine I have

date
mileage (reset daily)
miles per kwh (reset daily)
Kwh available (on full charges only)
Ahr
SOH (when it drops from 100, I will start tracking it...)
Hx
Public charging kwh received
Public charging cost.
home electric rates (calculated once a month when the new bill arrives)

From this I can calculate cost per mile, NCTC benefits, etc.

But back to your car. What I see is likely numbers depressed for a few possible reasons.

Charging habits. Stopping before full charge is not needed if your daily commute drops you below 80% SOC. Not charging fully daily limits the amount of top end balancing on the pack WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING but will depress your LEAF Spy Stats. It can take as much as 4-5 consecutive days for your numbers to rise. Those numbers are likely a more realistic picture of your pack status.

The other thing is charging to full at work during the day "could be" a bad idea especially if its hot, unshaded and finished several hours before leaving. I know its hard to pass up free but it really needs to be closely managed.

Finally, the wild card and that is time on the lot. I have had great success (its not luck) with battery pack longevity due to all 3 LEAFs of mine having minimal time on the lot and what little time was during Winter. I have to find it hard to believe it does not make a difference.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jbuntz
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:39 am

Lost 2nd bar today
56.98Ah 71% SOH 70.31hx 11,961 mi. 2081 miles and 50 days since 1st bar dropped.
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 5964
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:18 am

jbuntz wrote:Lost 2nd bar today
56.98Ah 71% SOH 70.31hx 11,961 mi. 2081 miles and 50 days since 1st bar dropped.
Keep good records with photos, you will need them when you apply to Guiness for record of the "the lousiest car battery EVER."

The excellent irony here is that Nissan will not be able to brush off the publicity as an isolated manufacturing defect
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 11842
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:17 pm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NissanL ... 029934580/ says he lost 1 bar on a May 2016 built SV in Utah.
It is with great sorrow that I need to announce that "Billy" (I named him Billy) my 12th battery capacity bar, died suddenly at 12:46 p.m., Friday, October 20, 2017, and only 23,384 miles from injuries sustained by being a "Lizard battery" in Layton, Utah.
Billy, my 12th battery capacity bar was born an "SV" on May 2016, in Smyrna, Tenn before he was shipped out to a Utah orphanage/dealership. He worked as a "test drive operator" until he was adopted by a loving family named the Creeds in August of 2016...

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15554
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:50 am

cwerdna wrote:https://www.facebook.com/groups/NissanL ... 029934580/ says he lost 1 bar on a May 2016 built SV in Utah.
It is with great sorrow that I need to announce that "Billy" (I named him Billy) my 12th battery capacity bar, died suddenly at 12:46 p.m., Friday, October 20, 2017, and only 23,384 miles from injuries sustained by being a "Lizard battery" in Layton, Utah.
Billy, my 12th battery capacity bar was born an "SV" on May 2016, in Smyrna, Tenn before he was shipped out to a Utah orphanage/dealership. He worked as a "test drive operator" until he was adopted by a loving family named the Creeds in August of 2016...
that "worked as a test drive vehicle" concerns me. This would be FAR different than other problem packs since they all lost their first bar well before 23,000 miles and he drove that much in just over a year so this car was also different in that its use was much heavier than the others
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

borugee
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:06 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Mar 2018
Location: Dallas TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:53 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: Stopping before full charge is not needed if your daily commute drops you below 80% SOC. Not charging fully daily limits the amount of top end balancing on the pack WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING but will depress your Leaf Spy Stats. It can take as much as 4-5 consecutive days for your numbers to rise. Those numbers are likely a more realistic picture of your pack status.
Conventinal Wisdom for Lithium batteries are that maintain battery at 30%-70% is good for longevity (Shallow Charge / Discharge Cycle). But For the Leaf battery if you try to do that, SOH, Hx seems to drop, this may be a BMS measuring error/problem than actual battery getting degraded. (Bottom line who cares about SOH, Hx as far as battery last long?)

For Leaf battery, is it better to get battery charged to 100% and let the battery balance it self if battery gets to more than 70% or less? (This can be daily for most) Or try to maintain it between 30%-70% using timers without letting it charge to 100% with occational 100% once a month or so?

What is everyones opinion?
Borugee
2018 SL ; 03/18 Delivery ; Dallas TX ; @10k Mile ; SOH=94.83,AHr=109.47,Hx=109.12

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15554
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:16 am

borugee wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Stopping before full charge is not needed if your daily commute drops you below 80% SOC. Not charging fully daily limits the amount of top end balancing on the pack WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING but will depress your Leaf Spy Stats. It can take as much as 4-5 consecutive days for your numbers to rise. Those numbers are likely a more realistic picture of your pack status.
Conventinal Wisdom for Lithium batteries are that maintain battery at 30%-70% is good for longevity (Shallow Charge / Discharge Cycle). But For the Leaf battery if you try to do that, SOH, Hx seems to drop, this may be a BMS measuring error/problem than actual battery getting degraded. (Bottom line who cares about SOH, Hx as far as battery last long?)

For Leaf battery, is it better to get battery charged to 100% and let the battery balance it self if battery gets to more than 70% or less? (This can be daily for most) Or try to maintain it between 30%-70% using timers without letting it charge to 100% with occational 100% once a month or so?

What is everyones opinion?
The real question is are the numbers "real?" Because I doubt they are. It does appear the BMS simply loses track when we don't fully charge the pack on a regular basis but is this bad?

To answer that; we have to look at a few things. If getting every little bit of range from your pack is essential to you, then yes its bad. Not charging to full reduces the level of top end balancing which will be a problem should you need to access that last mile from your pack.

If the range is less of a concern, you are better off charging to whatever level that prevents you from hitting Low battery warning. So some say running from 80% to 20% is best, I say BS. 100% to 40% is MUCH better especially in Winter or cooler areas.

To put it simply; In Summer, NEVER park the car with more than 80% SOC for an extended period outside. So if your commute uses less than 40% of your range, you should not be charging to 100%, EVERYONE else should be.

FYI; charging at work is a great way to save a dime... maybe two dimes if you live in a high utility cost area but the harm to your pack is probably costing you 10X what you are saving
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

borugee
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:06 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Mar 2018
Location: Dallas TX

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:30 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
borugee wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Stopping before full charge is not needed if your daily commute drops you below 80% SOC. Not charging fully daily limits the amount of top end balancing on the pack WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING but will depress your Leaf Spy Stats. It can take as much as 4-5 consecutive days for your numbers to rise. Those numbers are likely a more realistic picture of your pack status.
Conventinal Wisdom for Lithium batteries are that maintain battery at 30%-70% is good for longevity (Shallow Charge / Discharge Cycle). But For the Leaf battery if you try to do that, SOH, Hx seems to drop, this may be a BMS measuring error/problem than actual battery getting degraded. (Bottom line who cares about SOH, Hx as far as battery last long?)

For Leaf battery, is it better to get battery charged to 100% and let the battery balance it self if battery gets to more than 70% or less? (This can be daily for most) Or try to maintain it between 30%-70% using timers without letting it charge to 100% with occational 100% once a month or so?

What is everyones opinion?
The real question is are the numbers "real?" Because I doubt they are. It does appear the BMS simply loses track when we don't fully charge the pack on a regular basis but is this bad?

To answer that; we have to look at a few things. If getting every little bit of range from your pack is essential to you, then yes its bad. Not charging to full reduces the level of top end balancing which will be a problem should you need to access that last mile from your pack.

If the range is less of a concern, you are better off charging to whatever level that prevents you from hitting Low battery warning. So some say running from 80% to 20% is best, I say BS. 100% to 40% is MUCH better especially in Winter or cooler areas.

To put it simply; In Summer, NEVER park the car with more than 80% SOC for an extended period outside. So if your commute uses less than 40% of your range, you should not be charging to 100%, EVERYONE else should be.

FYI; charging at work is a great way to save a dime... maybe two dimes if you live in a high utility cost area but the harm to your pack is probably costing you 10X what you are saving
Thank you for the well thought out answer.

If you need 40% of battery for your daily commute what is your choice?
1. Charge to 100% daily (Battery will operate at 60%-100% - BMS is happy, LeafSpy Happy, Your SOH most likely show good numbers, battery is balanced with every charge.). This is also easy to achive, and more flexibility during the day as we have a fully charged battery.
2. Change to 70% using timers ; Operate between 30%-70% (You get 40% of capacity for your commute). BMS not happy, Battery not balanced, LeafSpy numbers will drop. And pray for battery longevity!! (This also use less enerfy from grid, as no use of balancing energy).
Borugee
2018 SL ; 03/18 Delivery ; Dallas TX ; @10k Mile ; SOH=94.83,AHr=109.47,Hx=109.12

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15554
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:00 am

borugee wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
borugee wrote:
Conventinal Wisdom for Lithium batteries are that maintain battery at 30%-70% is good for longevity (Shallow Charge / Discharge Cycle). But For the Leaf battery if you try to do that, SOH, Hx seems to drop, this may be a BMS measuring error/problem than actual battery getting degraded. (Bottom line who cares about SOH, Hx as far as battery last long?)

For Leaf battery, is it better to get battery charged to 100% and let the battery balance it self if battery gets to more than 70% or less? (This can be daily for most) Or try to maintain it between 30%-70% using timers without letting it charge to 100% with occational 100% once a month or so?

What is everyones opinion?
The real question is are the numbers "real?" Because I doubt they are. It does appear the BMS simply loses track when we don't fully charge the pack on a regular basis but is this bad?

To answer that; we have to look at a few things. If getting every little bit of range from your pack is essential to you, then yes its bad. Not charging to full reduces the level of top end balancing which will be a problem should you need to access that last mile from your pack.

If the range is less of a concern, you are better off charging to whatever level that prevents you from hitting Low battery warning. So some say running from 80% to 20% is best, I say BS. 100% to 40% is MUCH better especially in Winter or cooler areas.

To put it simply; In Summer, NEVER park the car with more than 80% SOC for an extended period outside. So if your commute uses less than 40% of your range, you should not be charging to 100%, EVERYONE else should be.

FYI; charging at work is a great way to save a dime... maybe two dimes if you live in a high utility cost area but the harm to your pack is probably costing you 10X what you are saving
Thank you for the well thought out answer.

If you need 40% of battery for your daily commute what is your choice?
1. Charge to 100% daily (Battery will operate at 60%-100% - BMS is happy, LeafSpy Happy, Your SOH most likely show good numbers, battery is balanced with every charge.). This is also easy to achive, and more flexibility during the day as we have a fully charged battery.
2. Change to 70% using timers ; Operate between 30%-70% (You get 40% of capacity for your commute). BMS not happy, Battery not balanced, LeafSpy numbers will drop. And pray for battery longevity!! (This also use less enerfy from grid, as no use of balancing energy).

I blogged this but for some reason its not saving right ... or something. but #1 BY FAR!

The reality is you can think your commute will use 40% SOC and be right several times but only have to be wrong a few times to greatly increase degradation. notice the chart the the level of "forgiveness" (distance between optimal Yellow and bad Red) at low SOC verses high SOC.
Li Ion charging guide.jpg
THIS is your error in judgment you have to play with. One line in my blog sums it up

"Thanks to GOM's subliminal hypnotic suggestion, we tend to think we have more range than we really do" (paraphrased since not at home and cannot access the blog... with its "autosave" feature)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

joeriv
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:41 am

That's a wonderful chart - put's everything I read about battery health in one place - what is the source?
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

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