Lizard Pack Holding Up

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DaveinOlyWA said:
you didnt. mileage and time changed but percentage loss did not
Do you see this documented anywhere? I know the warranty is still <9 bars before 8yrs/100k miles, but how do we know that <9 bars on a 30 kWh Leaf means <66% SOH like it does on a 24 kWh Leaf? Nissan could in theory have a different mapping of SOH to bars for the 30 kWh model.
 
fooljoe said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
you didnt. mileage and time changed but percentage loss did not
Do you see this documented anywhere? I know the warranty is still <9 bars before 8yrs/100k miles, but how do we know that <9 bars on a 30 kWh Leaf means <66% SOH like it does on a 24 kWh Leaf? Nissan could in theory have a different mapping of SOH to bars for the 30 kWh model.
That's the beauty (for Nissan) of using bars - they can mean anything they want them to mean, and can be changed whenever they like. Only for the 24kWh was four bars legally defined as "approximately 70%" (66.25% actual), as a result of the amended settlement and Nissan's service manual. No such definition appears in the warranty for the 30kWh battery, so (absent another suit) 4 bars could represent 90%, 95% or 99% of loss if Nissan chooses. Which is why, given Nissan's past behavior, I think anyone who is willing to assume that a 4 bar loss of a 30kWh battery is approximately 70% remaining, is letting hope trump experience. A warranty should be written so that it's clear, unambiguous, not subject to change and legally enforceable - Nissan's warranty based on bars fails that test. For comparison, here's the 2016 LEAF capacity warranty:

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the lithium-ion Battery Coverage for
defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium-
ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss
below nine bars of capacity as shown on the
vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period
of 60 months or 60,000 miles, for vehicles
equipped with the 24 kWh battery or 96 months or
100,000 miles for vehicles equipped with the 30
kWh battery, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge.
If
possible, the lithium-ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original lithium-
ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If nec-
essary, the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with
either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery.
Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” con-
dition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will
provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.

Here's the capacity warranty for the Kia Soul:

Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery Capacity Coverage
The Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery (“EV Battery”)
Capacity warranty coverage period is 10 years or
100,000 miles from the Date of First Service,
whichever comes first, for capacity loss below 70%
of the original battery capacity. This warranty
covers repairs needed to return battery capacity to
70% of original battery capacity.
If possible, the
EV battery components will be repaired or replaced,
and the original EV Battery will be returned to the
vehicle. If necessary, the EV Battery will be
replaced with either a new or remanufactured
Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery. Any repair or
replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Polymer
Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your
Lithium-Ion Battery to an “as new” condition with
the original 100% battery capacity."
 
GRA said:
That's the beauty (for Nissan) of using bars - they can mean anything they want them to mean, and can be changed whenever they like. Only for the 24kWh was four bars legally defined as "approximately 70%" (66.25% actual), as a result of the amended settlement and Nissan's service manual. No such definition appears in the warranty for the 30kWh battery, so (absent another suit) 4 bars could represent 90%, 95% or 99% of loss if Nissan chooses. Which is why, given Nissan's past behavior, I think anyone who is willing to assume that a 4 bar loss of a 30kWh battery is approximately 70% remaining, is letting hope trump experience. A warranty should be written so that it's clear, unambiguous, not subject to change and legally enforceable - Nissan's warranty based on bars fails that test.

+1 They really can do anything they want going forward, but doing so would be a huge mistake.

Nissan has a small amount of goodwill for being a leader in volume EV production but they burned some early adopters. Any gaming of the battery warranty going forward will just dig the hole deeper.

Tesla and Chevy will gladly take any business Nissan wants to give away by playing games with warranties.
 
Ooops. You're right. Newbie here. I was reading your post and saw that your timeframe and numbers for SOH was exactly the same as what I was seeing with my SOC and jumped to conclusion without paying attention to the SOH/C. Whew. My SOH is still 100%. Thanks.


Evoforce said:
Xcopy, I have to believe you meant SOH (stat of health) and not SOC (state of charge). I have made the same typo in the past and might goof again too! I sure hope that you end up with better stats than I have, especially since I represent what appears to be an extreme climate for a Nissan battery.

Other manufacturers have done better addressing heat and so hot climates like Arizona are not an extreme degradation to their batteries. I want to be able to say (and believe) that my Nissan Car can handle hot and cold as well or better than competing manufacturers. We really like our two Leafs in every way except for the battery.

Nissan when are you going to fix this extreme battery degradation problem? So far, even their latest proposed 60kWh battery from what has been published doesn't deal with hot ambient temperature. Their cathode changes appear to allow for faster charging and thus probably leads to less heat at charging but still do not go far enough to keep their pack cool in any other known way...
 
So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

In any case, I'm afraid to post here (I need some wood to knock on) but I have 23k on it after 27 months, this will be the third summer coming up and I do not have any capacity bars lost. I'd say I have maybe around 2%-4% loss in range. (I used to get to work with 80% left, now it's 78 to 76% on average)

Overall it seems to be holding up quite nicely.

Up to a few months ago when carwings stopped working, I was charging to 80% when I got home from work, and charged to 100% a few hours before I left for work the next morning. I think this works well for balancing the pack as leaving it overnight gives it time for the cell temperatures to even out before balancing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope others are getting the same results.

I haven't figured out what I will do at the end of this lease. The model 3 is very enticing, but I expect we won't see it for at least two years.

Honestly, what I'd really want is a late model CNG Explorer so I don't need to keep a Leaf *and* a long distance car but not give up my carrying capacity and HOV privileges... I suppose I could do like everyone else and just drive in the HOV lane anyway. :roll:
 
@turbo2ltr good to hear that your 2013 Leaf is holding up (incredibly) well. I'm really impressed since it's not the "lizard" pack that many (including myself) were holding out for. Don't be a stranger!
 
They seem to have made an improvement (of some sort) in the pack that was implemented in April of 2013. Leafs built from January through March of 2013 still lose multiple bars, while those made from April on lose mainly no bars*, or one bar...

* The SOH/capacity still declines, but most are still above 86%.
 
LeftieBiker said:
They seem to have made an improvement (of some sort) in the pack that was implemented in April of 2013. Leafs built from January through March of 2013 still lose multiple bars, while those made from April on lose mainly no bars*, or one bar...

* The SOH/capacity still declines, but most are still above 86%.

I hope he posts some data because that is not "normal" for any packs here. I'm glad that he seems to be having good luck though!
 
turbo2ltr said:
So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

In any case, I'm afraid to post here (I need some wood to knock on) but I have 23k on it after 27 months, this will be the third summer coming up and I do not have any capacity bars lost. I'd say I have maybe around 2%-4% loss in range. (I used to get to work with 80% left, now it's 78 to 76% on average)

Overall it seems to be holding up quite nicely.

Up to a few months ago when carwings stopped working, I was charging to 80% when I got home from work, and charged to 100% a few hours before I left for work the next morning. I think this works well for balancing the pack as leaving it overnight gives it time for the cell temperatures to even out before balancing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope others are getting the same results.

I haven't figured out what I will do at the end of this lease. The model 3 is very enticing, but I expect we won't see it for at least two years.

Honestly, what I'd really want is a late model CNG Explorer so I don't need to keep a Leaf *and* a long distance car but not give up my carrying capacity and HOV privileges... I suppose I could do like everyone else and just drive in the HOV lane anyway. :roll:

I'm glad to hear your battery is holding up somewhat, but your math is a little off. From your statement, it sounds like you have lost a bit more than 2-4% (assuming, of course, a reasonable accuracy of the gauges - a questionable assumption with Nissan).

For your commute, you are using 22-24% of the battery when you used to use 20%. Assuming that your efficiency is the same, this is a loss of 9-17%, not 2-4%.

20% / 22% = 9% loss
20% / 24% = 17% loss

Put another way, if your original usable capacity is 21kWh, you used 4.2kWh (20%).
4.2kWh is 22% of 19kWh (9% loss)
4.2kWh is 24% of 17.5kWh (17% loss)

So your battery isn't really holding up as well as it seems. It sounds like you may soon lose a bar.
 
Math was never my strong suit.. lol.

Based solely on observations, there is little change in range at the end of the day. Even if I loose a bar soon, I am still very satisfied with the range. I also drive much more aggressively than I used to. In my 2011, it was rare for me to go over 70. If traffic allows, I'll do the 20 miles home at 75 mph.

If I have time, I'll try to get some battery data this weekend.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
turbo2ltr said:
So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

In any case, I'm afraid to post here (I need some wood to knock on) but I have 23k on it after 27 months, this will be the third summer coming up and I do not have any capacity bars lost. I'd say I have maybe around 2%-4% loss in range. (I used to get to work with 80% left, now it's 78 to 76% on average)

Overall it seems to be holding up quite nicely.

Up to a few months ago when carwings stopped working, I was charging to 80% when I got home from work, and charged to 100% a few hours before I left for work the next morning. I think this works well for balancing the pack as leaving it overnight gives it time for the cell temperatures to even out before balancing.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope others are getting the same results.

I haven't figured out what I will do at the end of this lease. The model 3 is very enticing, but I expect we won't see it for at least two years.

Honestly, what I'd really want is a late model CNG Explorer so I don't need to keep a Leaf *and* a long distance car but not give up my carrying capacity and HOV privileges... I suppose I could do like everyone else and just drive in the HOV lane anyway. :roll:

I'm glad to hear your battery is holding up somewhat, but your math is a little off. From your statement, it sounds like you have lost a bit more than 2-4% (assuming, of course, a reasonable accuracy of the gauges - a questionable assumption with Nissan).

For your commute, you are using 22-24% of the battery when you used to use 20%. Assuming that your efficiency is the same, this is a loss of 9-17%, not 2-4%.

20% / 22% = 9% loss
20% / 24% = 17% loss

Put another way, if your original usable capacity is 21kWh, you used 4.2kWh (20%).
4.2kWh is 22% of 19kWh (9% loss)
4.2kWh is 24% of 17.5kWh (17% loss)

So your battery isn't really holding up as well as it seems. It sounds like you may soon lose a bar.

Still, it appears to be an improvement over 2011/12 packs for Phoenix.
 
I scanned through this whole thread as we're still jonesing for cheap used leafs. To net it out it seems inconclusive at best that the new battery 24kwh is any better, or the 30kwh either for that matter. Small sample size and extrapolation from the results so far. I'm starting to think if we do make a move on a leaf it better be damn cheap, with low expectations for range holding up.

The other conclusion is that TomT seems to be migrating towards the Volt, and I'm wondering if I would be better served by that strategy. I talked to a Tesla owner at lunch who said he goes on long trips a lot and said he kind of wished he had gone with a Volt. I'm not expecting to find one of those used for $8k though, so the picking through the leaf dustbin will go on a bit longer. There's a used lot not too far from me that has about 20 of them sitting around.
 
LeftieBiker said:
They seem to have made an improvement (of some sort) in the pack that was implemented in April of 2013. Leafs built from January through March of 2013 still lose multiple bars, while those made from April on lose mainly no bars*, or one bar...

* The SOH/capacity still declines, but most are still above 86%.
I agree with this completely. I'm in the unique position to have had both an early and late year 2013 leaf SV. The early one was made around March. Within 6000 miles it had dropped to 88% capacity in a fairly consistent decline. I'm sure it would have soon lost a bar had it not been totaled.

Our replacement leaf was made in October. It now has almost 37,000 miles and it running around 89% capacity, which it has reported for a long time so I'm not sure how long until it loses a bar. It might go another 12,000 miles. Degredation slowed considerably after some initial loss. It sometimes reports 91% but I think that's wrong. I still sometimes see 95 miles on the GOM when charged to 100% not even with Eco on.

Alas, we are turning this car in any day now having purchased a new ICE.
 
The final class action lawsuit letter that included the free charging card from Nissan contains this passage:

"...if your 2011 and/or 2012 Nissan LEAF experiences capacity loss below nine bars of capacity within 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, and you bring your car to an authorized Nissan dealership, the dealer will replace the vehicle's battery, with the newly developed battery currently used in 2015 model LEAF vehicles that is intended to make the battery more durable in extremely hot climates..."

This I think is the first written confirmation that the 2015 tech is "intended" to be more heat tolerant. But it seems that if this intention has any real life implications remains to be seen.
 
Valdemar said:
Still, it appears to be an improvement over 2011/12 packs for Phoenix.
Yeah, almost 27 months in Phoenix and no bars lost? I live in San Diego and here's how long it took me to lose bars:

Bar 1: 27 months (2 summers)
Bar 2: 41 months (3 summers, 14 months)
Bar 3: 51 months (4 summers, 10 months)
Bar 4: ?? months

So yeah, it's definitely holding up better than the original packs if a Phoenix pack goes 27 months without losing a bar.
 
turbo2ltr said:
So I've been way out of the loop with this forum and Leaf news in general.

I turned in my 2011 after 3 years and it was down several capacity bars. I got a 2013 to replace it (in Dec 2013) and (correct me if I'm wrong) that pack was the "improved" pack, but not the newer lizzard pack?

you are not wrong and we need to understand that small tweaks to the chemistry is not limited to MY releases. It is an ongoing process which would imply that the later the car, the better the battery pack. Now all of this might not even qualify as baby steps but the one thing that is sure is that Nissan is not done or even taking short breaks on their better battery quest.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
you are not wrong and we need to understand that small tweaks to the chemistry is not limited to MY releases. It is an ongoing process which would imply that the later the car, the better the battery pack. Now all of this might even qualify as baby steps but the one thing that is sure is that Nissan is not done or even taking short breaks on their better battery quest.

Your battery capacity at 32K miles versus my 2013 (31.5K miles) at about the same delivery time (mine late 11/2013)
has almost an additional 10 Ahr of capacity (mine @ 53 Ahr). Although your production number is about 6K units
later, that's very strange! Still no bar losses yet, i.e. fingers crossed at every start button push. First bar does
drop at 49 Ahr while driving.
 
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
you are not wrong and we need to understand that small tweaks to the chemistry is not limited to MY releases. It is an ongoing process which would imply that the later the car, the better the battery pack. Now all of this might even qualify as baby steps but the one thing that is sure is that Nissan is not done or even taking short breaks on their better battery quest.

Your battery capacity at 32K miles versus my 2013 (31.5K miles) at about the same delivery time (mine late 11/2013)
has almost an additional 10 Ahr of capacity (mine @ 53 Ahr). Although your production number is about 6K units
later, that's very strange!

oh... I suppose its not a good time to mention my ahr was 64.45 this morning?...
 
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