Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

RegGuheert · Apr 16, 2015

lorenfb said:
And anyone that has an in-series amp meter can also easily and ACCURATELY measure that
current by carefully NOT interrupting the 'sleep' current when attaching the meter, thus presenting
a Leaf's ECU from entering its active mode increasing the current.

Yep, that's the trick. If you aren't careful, you'll blow the fuse in your meter, which is no big deal if you happen to have another one handy.

Feel free to measure and post a week-long plot of LEAF 12V battery current with mA resolution.

lorenfb said:
This thread is not like other threads, e.g. Global Warning, Politics, Guns, & FCBEVs, where hyperbole can be typically presented without actual test data to support one's case.

Like I said, I'm the only one who has measured and provide that data in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can correct that by providing a link to the data. You, on the other hand, have not provide a single shread of data in this thread. Just a bunch of FUD.

AndyH · Apr 16, 2015

69800 said:
AndyH said:

Has anyone measured the unloaded output of the charger on the Leaf?

This is important because we cannot tell the set voltage by logging the battery voltage. If one has a partially discharged battery of any type connected to a variable power supply, one can turn the voltage up to 50 and the amperage to 10 and the voltage at the battery will still be 12.0. We wouldn't be able to measure a voltage above the safe limit of the battery until it's more than 100% charged. Since the car's DC-DC and/or charger isn't fully charging the car, any voltage logged will reflect the battery, not the charger output.

The experiment I'd do is to connect a logger to the battery, then plug the car in for a 100% charge - and then leave the car plugged-in for at least another 12 hours after the traction battery's full.

Click to expand...

I can't remember where I read it but Ingineer measured the output and I was surprise at how many amps it put out. It was way more than adequate but I cant quote the number.

Thanks - I followed Reg's link and agree that the current capability is more than sufficient. I still don't see any info on the voltages (other than about 13V) or any indication that the DC-DC is actually a 2- or 3-stage battery charger. The voltages are the first thing I'd want to know if I was troubleshooting a charging problem.

RegGuheert · Apr 16, 2015

AndyH said:
Thanks - I followed Reg's link and agree that the current capability is more than sufficient. I still don't see any info on the voltages (other than about 13V) or any indication that the DC-DC is actually a 2- or 3-stage battery charger. The voltages are the first thing I'd want to know if I was troubleshooting a charging problem.

We've provided many plots of the voltage. It's a three-stage charger (but with the output current being so high, the bulk (CC) mode will not last long). The problem is that it enters float mode long before it should.

RegGuheert · Apr 16, 2015

RegGuheert said:
RegGuheert said:

...(and I will try to measure how long the charger stays at 14.5V)...

Click to expand...

I plugged in and ran in the house for a couple of minutes. By the time I came out, it had already dropped down to 13.1V. So I only know that the charging at 14.5V lasted less than five minutes. That's unfortunate, since it has up to three hours (today) to do the job properly.

When I started the car today, I didn't have the meter facing me. By the time I had gotten out of the driver's seat and walked over to the meter, it was already down at 13.1V. So it charged for less than 30 seconds.

After arriving home and letting the car sit for about an hour, the voltage has risen to 12.67V, so it DID actually add some charge during this trip, although it did not fully charge the battery. (It was at 12.61V before I connected the charger this morning.)

lorenfb · Apr 16, 2015

Battery maintainer (external charger w/o special micro-controller type charger) battery voltage data for
various vehicles with access to for data measurements; vehicle, battery age, battery maintained voltage,
frequency of driving:

BMW 4 Dr, 4 yrs, 13.04, once/6 months
M/B Coupe, 6 yrs, 13.04, once/3 months
Mini Cooper S, 7 yrs, 12.61 once/6 months
Nissan Pathfinder, 3 yrs, 12.44, once/week (only solar panel with max. of 50-75 ma)
Suzuki GSX 1000, 11 yrs, 12.88, once/6 months

All the above are lead-acid batteries.

lorenfb · Apr 16, 2015

RegGuheert said:
]Like I said, I'm the only one who has measured and provide that data in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can correct that by providing a link to the data. You, on the other hand, have not provide a single shread of data in this thread. Just a bunch of FUD.

You missed this?

Posted 4/6:

Note: The 'sleep'/standby current draw (hood closed, doors locked) is 60-70 ma without any
sun (morning overcast). Based on this and assuming half capacity (usable battery) of a 70 Ahr
battery, then that results in about a maximum of 21 days (70 Ahr / (2 X 70 ma X 24) if left
without any external charging.

Posted 4/8:

Maybe those having shortened battery lives probably should measure the battery's off-state current
draw (Leaf in the sleep mode) and not assume that the shortened battery life is related to an
inadequate charging voltage. As previously indicated, my Leaf draws about 60-70 ma in its
sleep mode with no solar panel charging. On a fairly sunny day, the battery is charged by about
10 ma from the panel, which is not much but it's positive into battery and it has overcome the
60-70 ma sleep current and eliminated the draw current completely. Given my data and previous
years of battery experience, I would not recommend attaching a 12 volt battery charger to a Leaf.

Note: The 4/8 data measurement was done with a Fluke in-series with the battery, i.e. no inductive
measurement.

RegGuheert · Apr 16, 2015

lorenfb said:
RegGuheert said:

]Like I said, I'm the only one who has measured and provide that data in this forum. If I'm wrong, you can correct that by providing a link to the data. You, on the other hand, have not provide a single shread of data in this thread. Just a bunch of FUD.

Click to expand...

You missed this?

Posted 4/6:

Note: The 'sleep'/standby current draw (hood closed, doors locked) is 60-70 ma without any
sun (morning overcast). Based on this and assuming half capacity (usable battery) of a 70 Ahr
battery, then that results in about a maximum of 21 days (70 Ahr / (2 X 70 ma X 24) if left
without any external charging.

Posted 4/8:

Maybe those having shortened battery lives probably should measure the battery's off-state current
draw (Leaf in the sleep mode) and not assume that the shortened battery life is related to an
inadequate charging voltage. As previously indicated, my Leaf draws about 60-70 ma in its
sleep mode with no solar panel charging. On a fairly sunny day, the battery is charged by about
10 ma from the panel, which is not much but it's positive into battery and it has overcome the
60-70 ma sleep current and eliminated the draw current completely. Given my data and previous
years of battery experience, I would not recommend attaching a 12 volt battery charger to a Leaf.

Note: The 4/8 data measurement was done with a Fluke in-series with the battery, i.e. no inductive
measurement.

Yes, I missed it. And it doesn't match my measurements from October 2012(MY2011, not plugged in, no ELM327, parked in the garage):

RegGuheert said:
- For the first ten minutes or so the car drew 330mA.
- After about 10 minutes, the tare current dropped to a lower value. It normally sat at 15mA, but pulsed up to 24mA every two seconds or so.
- Occasionally it would rise up to 115mA for a few seconds. I do not know how often this occurs.

Average draw for my MY2011 LEAF is around 25mA.

AndyH · Apr 16, 2015

RegGuheert said:
AndyH said:

Thanks - I followed Reg's link and agree that the current capability is more than sufficient. I still don't see any info on the voltages (other than about 13V) or any indication that the DC-DC is actually a 2- or 3-stage battery charger. The voltages are the first thing I'd want to know if I was troubleshooting a charging problem.

Click to expand...

We've provided many plots of the voltage. It's a three-stage charger (but with the output current being so high, the bulk (CC) mode will not last long). The problem is that it enters float mode long before it should.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there's at least one communication disconnect here. I'll try one more time and then leave it.

I have seen the plots. The plots presented are taken with the "charger" (more likely a DC-DC, but I can't yet confirm or deny that) and the battery in the circuit. Since I know that the existence of the battery in the circuit will mask the actual voltage setting of the DC-DC or charger until after the battery is at 100% state of charge (through both the constant current bulk phase and the constant voltage saturation phase), I have yet to see a chart from a fully charged/saturated battery that shows that the DC-DC is providing more than 13.5VDC - and we all know that is not enough to fully charge a flooded lead-acid battery. Bottom line: I've seen people 'say' it's a charger (though ingineer appears to make clear it's a DC-DC), but haven't yet seen a trace that actually looks like a two- or three-stage lead acid battery charger profile. Therefore, I think that an important step might have been jumped over and replaced with an assumption.

The point's likely moot as it appears folks have decided to skip the rest of the troubleshooting and go straight for a battery tender and that's fine - path of least resistance and all. I absolutely understand the desire to have something that just works!

Enjoy the project.

lorenfb · Apr 16, 2015

This thread attempts to resolve two issues but as yet has failed to provide any long term data
to resolve the two issues:

1. Whether the Leaf provides an inadequate charging voltage (13.1) resulting in reduced battery longevity,
and if so what is an appropriate charging voltage for long term non-use of a lead-acid battery.
2. Whether the Leaf requires supplemental lead-acid battery charging and at what frequency.

Without any supporting data, any conclusion is only anecdotal.

Although my data below is hardly robust by any measure, my conclusion to both 1 & 2 is no.
Until conclusive data can be provided otherwise, my view of the Leaf's lead-acid battery is unchanged.

My data:

BMW 4 Dr, 4 yrs, 13.04, once/6 months
M/B Coupe, 6 yrs, 13.04, once/3 months
Mini Cooper S, 7 yrs, 12.61, once/6 months
Nissan Pathfinder, 3 yrs, 12.44, once/week (only solar panel with max. of 50-75 ma)
Suzuki GSX 1000, 11 yrs, 12.88, once/6 months
Porsche 911, 3 yrs, 13.43, once/2 years

RegGuheert · Apr 18, 2015

AndyH said:
I have yet to see a chart from a fully charged/saturated battery that shows that the DC-DC is providing more than 13.5VDC...

I have never provided such a plot, but I have discussed on many occasions in this forum (10s of times) that the battery voltage in the LEAF does go to 14.5V when either the LEAF is started or charging begins. But when I have plotted voltage data (that I recorded manually) from my LEAF's battery, I have only ever plotted a series of resting voltages (connected by straight lines, which is not really what occurs between the points), so you have never seen a plot from me with voltages over 13V.

That said, 69800 has provided a couple of plots of battery voltage which DO show the 14V+ voltages which come from the LEAF. One was here. 69800 has provided me with the raw data from that plot and I have recreated that chart using Excel, Here it is:

The portion up until April 7 is the result of a charge by an external Battery Tender. (The Battery Tender may have been removed sometime during the day on April 6.) After that, it is all LEAF. You can find the periods when the LEAF was charging or driven by looking for the 13.1V plateaus. Those plateaus are the float phase of the three-stage charger in the LEAF. At the beginning of many of these, you will see a spike up to above 14V. That is the absorption portion of the three-stage charger in the LEAF. The reason you do not ALWAYS see this phase of the charging is that 69800's data acquisition system was sampling only every five minutes. As I mentioned in a very recent thread, the LEAF's charger often dwells in the absorption phase for less than five minutes. Sometimes it stays there less than thirty seconds. As a result these spikes will not always be caught when the voltage is sampled only every five minutes.

AndyH said:
... - and we all know that is not enough to fully charge a flooded lead-acid battery.

Hopefully everyone can agree on that point!

AndyH said:
Bottom line: I've seen people 'say' it's a charger (though ingineer appears to make clear it's a DC-DC),...

Like many modern battery chargers, it's a charger that's a DC/DC converter. They are one and the same thing.

AndyH said:
...but haven't yet seen a trace that actually looks like a two- or three-stage lead acid battery charger profile.

I agree that the charging profile from the LEAF doesn't look like a lot of traces you would see from other chargers. There are two main reasons for this: 1) It has such a high charging current that the Bulk charging phase occurs almost instantly and 2) It (usually) does not dwell at the absorption voltage (14V+) long enough to properly charge the battery. That second reason is my major beef with LEAF's battery charger.

RegGuheert · Apr 18, 2015

lorenfb said:
1. Whether the Leaf provides an inadequate charging voltage (13.1) resulting in reduced battery longevity,
and if so what is an appropriate charging voltage for long term non-use of a lead-acid battery.

The LEAF provides both ~14.5V and ~13.1V charging voltages. I have no complaint with the charging voltages used. Those are appropriate for proper 3-stage charging. My issue is how long it remains at the 14.5V charging voltage.

lorenfb said:
2. Whether the Leaf requires supplemental lead-acid battery charging and at what frequency.

OP (as well as many others on this forum) have reported that the LEAF battery has became sulfated to the point that it would not operate the vehicle. It is completely ridiculous for a battery which has very little to do to become sulfated in such a short amount of time (outside of some form of owner abuse). Nissan should be able to design a charging algorithm that remains at 14.5V long enough to return the battery to a full state of charge, if not daily then at least weekly. At the same time, it should not remain at 14.5V during all driving and charging periods, as this will cause the battery to outgas much more than is desirable, shortening the battery's life and risking damage to underhood components. It is a trade-off between the two, and they do this last part TOO well. IMO, their approach to charging is fine for the driving portion, but they should increase the absorption time during the periods when the vehicle is charging (but should still provide a float capability during those periods).

RegGuheert · Apr 18, 2015

RegGuheert said:
On days when I drive the car, I'm going to not record the voltage and simply record the number of times I charge and start the car like this: 2C4D means I charged twice and started the car (drove) four times. Here are the readings so far:

12.87V>12.78V>12.71V>12.64V>2C4D>1C2D>12.57V

So, over the past 36 hours, even with three charge sessions and six starts, the battery voltage has dropped from 12.64V to 12.57V.

AndyH · Apr 18, 2015

RegGuheert said:
AndyH said:

I have yet to see a chart from a fully charged/saturated battery that shows that the DC-DC is providing more than 13.5VDC...

Click to expand...

I have never provided such a plot, but I have discussed on many occasions in this forum (10s of times) that the battery voltage in the LEAF does go to 14.5V when either the LEAF is started or charging begins. But when I have plotted voltage data (that I recorded manually) from my LEAF's battery, I have only ever plotted a series of resting voltages (connected by straight lines, which is not really what occurs between the points), so you have never seen a plot from me with voltages over 13V.

No, but Ingineer specifically mentioned recording 13.5VDC and I trust his reporting.

RegGuheert said:
That said, 69800 has provided a couple of plots of battery voltage which DO show the 14V+ voltages which come from the LEAF. One was here. 69800 has provided me with the raw data from that plot and I have recreated that chart using Excel, Here it is:

The portion up until April 7 is the result of a charge by an external Battery Tender. (The Battery Tender may have been removed sometime during the day on April 6.) After that, it is all LEAF. You can find the periods when the LEAF was charging or driven by looking for the 13.1V plateaus. Those plateaus are the float phase of the three-stage charger in the LEAF. At the beginning of many of these, you will see a spike up to above 14V. That is the absorption portion of the three-stage charger in the LEAF. The reason you do not ALWAYS see this phase of the charging is that 69800's data acquisition system was sampling only every five minutes. As I mentioned in a very recent thread, the LEAF's charger often dwells in the absorption phase for less than five minutes. Sometimes it stays there less than thirty seconds. As a result these spikes will not always be caught when the voltage is sampled only every five minutes.

AndyH said:

... - and we all know that is not enough to fully charge a flooded lead-acid battery.

Click to expand...

Hopefully everyone can agree on that point!

AndyH said:

Bottom line: I've seen people 'say' it's a charger (though ingineer appears to make clear it's a DC-DC),...

Click to expand...

Like many modern battery chargers, it's a charger that's a DC/DC converter. They are one and the same thing.

That depends. Modern battery chargers sourced from AC tend to be high-frequency switch-mode power supplies. They also tend to be computer controlled with proper battery-specific charge profiles. Most DC-DC tend to be set to fixed voltages - some as low as 12.0VDC (the one on my Chinese BEV motorcycle, for example). Standard auto nominal 12V is actually 13.8 - that's the normal output of an auto alternator and the voltage lights and electronics are built around.

Thanks for the chart and the reminder of the 5-minute sampling rate.

RegGuheert said:
AndyH said:

...but haven't yet seen a trace that actually looks like a two- or three-stage lead acid battery charger profile.

Click to expand...

I agree that the charging profile from the LEAF doesn't look like a lot of traces you would see from other chargers. There are two main reasons for this: 1) It has such a high charging current that the Bulk charging phase occurs almost instantly and 2) It (usually) does not dwell at the absorption voltage (14V+) long enough to properly charge the battery. That second reason is my major beef with LEAF's battery charger.

I cannot accept your assertion in [1] because 120A isn't an abnormal capacity in the auto world. My VWs back to 1998 had 120A alternators - gas and diesel. Additionally, since the bulk to saturation (CC to CV) transition shouldn't happen until the charger-battery system is up to about 14.5VDC, it appears from the charts that there is NO constant voltage saturation phase at all (if it was there, it should be well longer than the 5 minute sampling rate). If there was a super-strong bulk charge (CC) that was taking the battery to 80%, I would expect that the battery was being kept at a fairly stable voltage around the 14V+ 'spikes' - and that's not happening either.

I guess that means I can agree with you about point [2] if I move to where I think your point of view is - that the work's being done by a defective charger. But I don't think there's actually a charger there, and while I agree that there's no sign of the saturation phase, it appears the bulk phase is AWOL as well...

The end result is the same, though - clearly the battery's not being saturated, it's being kept in the vicinity of 80% on a good day, and that's not a recipe for long life of any lead-acid battery.

DaveEV · Apr 18, 2015

AndyH said:
No, but Ingineer specifically mentioned recording 13.5VDC and I trust his reporting.

I have only ever seen two different voltages on on the 12V line when the DC-DC is on:

14.5V for a short period of time after turning on the car (no more than 5 minutes typically).
13.0V after the car has decided it's been on 14.5V long enough.

My data points match Reg's data-logging. I've never seen 13.5V except when the car is ramping down to 13.0V.

AndyH · Apr 18, 2015

drees said:
AndyH said:

No, but Ingineer specifically mentioned recording 13.5VDC and I trust his reporting.

Click to expand...

I have only ever seen two different voltages on on the 12V line when the DC-DC is on:

14.5V for a short period of time after turning on the car (no more than 5 minutes typically).
13.0V after the car has decided it's been on 14.5V long enough.

My data points match Reg's data-logging. I've never seen 13.5V except when the car is ramping down to 13.0V.

drees said:
ht2 said:

When the Leaf is ON, DC-DC converter is always on and supplying 13.5V or Turn on only when 12V battery is low?

Click to expand...

Yes, when the LEAF is on it will always supply ~13.5v to make sure the 12v battery is charged.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=181334#p181334" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveEV · Apr 18, 2015

AndyH said:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=181334#p181334

~ is important. Clarified my long ago post.

RegGuheert · Apr 19, 2015

AndyH said:
Most DC-DC tend to be set to fixed...

We're talking about the battery charger in the Nissan LEAF. No one cares about what any other charger does. This charger is a DC/DC converter which has its output voltage controlled by the VCM. From the 2011 Nissan LEAF Service Manual:

2011 Nissan LEAF Service Manual pages EVC-20 - EVC-21 said:
DC/DC CONVERTER

The DC/DC converter steps down the high voltage DC current of the Li-ion battery to a 12 V DC current, which is used to supply power to the 12 V electrical system and charge the 12V battery. In addition, the DC/DC converter changes the output voltage according to VCM signals so that appropriate voltage is supplied depending on the vehicle condition.

AndyH said:
Additionally, since the bulk to saturation (CC to CV) transition shouldn't happen until the charger-battery system is up to about 14.5VDC,...

That IS the point at which it happens.

AndyH said:
...it appears from the charts that there is NO constant voltage saturation phase at all

How would you know that from the chart? As discussed it is a plot of voltages sampled once every five minutes.

Simply put, the LEAF's battery charger regulates its output at 14.5V at the beginning of each charging cycle. At other times it regulates it at 13.1V.

Your continued assertions that it does something else are simply speculative nonsense. If you want to insist that it DOESN'T regulate at 14.5V at startup and at the beginning of traction battery charging, then, by all means, provide us with a plot supporting your assertion that the LEAF charger does something else.

In the meantime, several of us have MEASURED what it does and have reported it here, on many, many occasions.

AndyH said:
(if it was there, it should be well longer than the 5 minute sampling rate).

Agreed, but sometimes it IS there for well longer than 5 minutes. I have seen it regulate the voltage at 14.5V for the entire hours-long period that the traction battery is charging. Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough to keep the battery from sulfating itself to death. I imagine such charges are triggered by very low battery voltages at the start of the charging session.

AndyH said:
The end result is the same, though - clearly the battery's not being saturated, it's being kept in the vicinity of 80% on a good day, and that's not a recipe for long life of any lead-acid battery.

Yep...on a good day. Typically, if I haven't charged the LEAF's 12V battery in over a month or so, when I open the hood and check the battery after a resting period I will measure about 12.25V, which is only a bit above a 50% SOC. I have reported such measurements in various places on this forum for a couple of years now.

On that measure I think we can agree: No GOOD battery charger would ever do that to a battery.

lorenfb · Apr 19, 2015

RegGuheert said:
Agreed, but sometimes it IS there for well longer than 5 minutes. I have seen it regulate the voltage at 14.5V for the entire hours-long period that the traction battery is charging.

Good input/data, i.e. the battery is charged at times ("hours-long") to 14.5V.
So as long as the traction battery is frequently charged, the 12V battery will be charged to 14.5, right?

RegGuheert said:
Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough to keep the battery from sulfating itself to death.

Now, on what data/basis can you make this conclusion?

RegGuheert · Apr 19, 2015

lorenfb said:
RegGuheert said:

Agreed, but sometimes it IS there for well longer than 5 minutes. I have seen it regulate the voltage at 14.5V for the entire hours-long period that the traction battery is charging.

Click to expand...

Good input/data, i.e. the battery is charged at times ("hours-long") to 14.5V.
So as long as the traction battery is frequently charged, the 12V battery will be charged to 14.5, right?

Well, it will be charge AT 14.5V, but the resting voltage will not be that. Unfortunately, once lead sulfate has hardened from a soft paste to hard crystals, the capacity that it represents is lost. Normal charging will not ever recover that capacity. I've posted other links on this topic, but here is another one:

Battery Tech Solutions said:
When the lead sulfate is left sitting for long periods of time, the initially spongy lead sulfate hardens and forms crystals. Unlike the spongy lead sulfate, these crystals cannot be reverted back to active material (lead and lead dioxide). More crystals on lead plates mean less active material is left to be used for the battery's chemical reaction. A battery is effectively dead when there is simply not enough active material left to start a vehicle!

lorenfb said:
RegGuheert said:

Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough to keep the battery from sulfating itself to death.

Click to expand...

Now, on what data/basis can you make this conclusion?

On the basis that I gave in the post at the top of this page:

RegGuheert said:
lorenfb said:

2. Whether the Leaf requires supplemental lead-acid battery charging and at what frequency.

Click to expand...

OP (as well as many others on this forum) have reported that the LEAF battery has became sulfated to the point that it would not operate the vehicle. It is completely ridiculous for a battery which has very little to do to become sulfated in such a short amount of time (outside of some form of owner abuse). Nissan should be able to design a charging algorithm that remains at 14.5V long enough to return the battery to a full state of charge, if not daily then at least weekly. At the same time, it should not remain at 14.5V during all driving and charging periods, as this will cause the battery to outgas much more than is desirable, shortening the battery's life and risking damage to underhood components. It is a trade-off between the two, and they do this last part TOO well. IMO, their approach to charging is fine for the driving portion, but they should increase the absorption time during the periods when the vehicle is charging (but should still provide a float capability during those periods).

I'm interested to learn under what conditions the charging system in the LEAF triggers the long-term 14.5V charge that occurs infrequently. Does anyone have data about that?

lorenfb · Apr 19, 2015

RegGuheert said:
Unfortunately, once lead sulfate has hardened from a soft paste to hard crystals, the capacity that it represents is lost. Normal charging will not ever recover that capacity.

Yes, I agree. But the key issue is what the minimum driving/charging-voltage/frequency is to avoid this
problematic sulfate mode. It appears that your hypothesis is that there isn't any, for which as yet no
data have been presented.

Furthermore, the data I presented up-stream, hardly robust, over the years indicates that battery maintenance
charging between 13.0 and 13.5 will keep a 12V lead-acid in a reliable SOC, i.e. with near output Ahr and
cold cranking amps as original for over five years. If data are available indicating the rate of the formation
of sulfate over time and charging voltage, please provide it. Ideally one might expect a family of curves
where the X-axis is time and the Y-axis is percent sulfate formation with each curve representing the
maintenance charging voltage.

Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

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