dm33
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Re: Tesla Model S

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:39 pm

TonyWilliams wrote: There's a HUGE difference in the reaction of the LEAF battery chemistry than the chemistry of the Tesla, which REQUIRES temperature control, or there would be a whole bunch more fires!!!
What is the chemistry difference? Are Tesla battery packs really more vulnerable to fires? Why?

The LEAF and Volt have many times more fleet miles than Tesla, yet AFAIK, not a single fire caused by the battery in either vehicle other than the well publicized fire in the Volt weeks after a crash test.

What can Tesla to do prevent it? If its battery chemistry seems that they can't fix it. More protection? Fire retardant?

cwerdna
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:15 am

^^^
I don't know the details, but I was able to find http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 84#p259684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, no thanks to Google nor Bing. Ugh... if they could only index this site better.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... ithium_ion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is something on the many variants.
Last edited by cwerdna on Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:17 am

dm33 wrote:What can Tesla to do prevent it? If its battery chemistry seems that they can't fix it. More protection? Fire retardant?
By most accounts they have already taken extraordinary protective measures. Whether or not there is foul play involved, this is simply the law of averages catching up with a company that's caught the public's eye. Though if you do the math they're still faring better than average so far. With respect to LEAF and Volt fires, I'd be shocked if they've evaded the law of averages. I suspect their numbers are on par with everyone else's. They're just not the media darlings Tesla is so we probably never heard about them.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:43 am

^ Do you mean the law of large numbers? It's not just a good idea, it's the law!
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:25 am

GeekEV wrote:
dm33 wrote:What can Tesla to do prevent it? If its battery chemistry seems that they can't fix it. More protection? Fire retardant?
By most accounts they have already taken extraordinary protective measures.
Which accounts are those? They have impressive patents but some of them are not implemented. In another thread someone claimed there is no fire retardant between the cells. Also for the 65kWh version they could space out the cells more. The coolant is said to have a couple of issues. One: is flammable. Two, when pack is damaged leaks, and that alone is enough to cause a fire with type of cells used. Yes, a lot of text with out references.
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hill
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:31 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:^ Do you mean the law of large numbers? It's not just a good idea, it's the law!
Still - you gotta love the irony. Thousands & thousands of ICE cars catch fire during accidents per week ... and if that point is raised? You'd hear, "get over it". But drive a Tesla thru a house at high speed, and through a concrete wall (never mind the drive runs away from it) ... it it catches fire, all hell breaks loose. Never mind the fact that ICE fires happen from other means (leaky fuel lines, etc) ya gotta love sensationalism.
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:02 am

dm33 wrote:What is the chemistry difference?
Tesla = nickel-cobalt-aluminium ('NCA') lithium-ion (standard Panasonic consumer cells), good on life, storage and power, a bit higher on cost.

Most others (Nissan/Renault/GM) = lithium manganese oxide ('LMO'), which is a good 'all-rounder' chemistry (or 'mediocre' at everything, if you are being disparaging) and, of course, cheaper than most others.

I think I read Fisker and some Ford products are using lithium phosphate, good on safety, but don't hold me to that.

Domestic (Japan) market MiEVs are now getting lithium titanate, which is the best for longevity but is expensive and lower energy storage.

Lithium titanate would be my choice if I wanted to keep a car for 20 years and I could afford it, followed by NCA though it is considered one of the least safe chemistries.[ :? ]

If I was choosing on cost and I was only keeping the car for 5 years, I'd be happy with LMO (which is just as well, as with my budgets, and current offerings, I have no choice in the matter!).

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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:38 pm

hill wrote: Still - you gotta love the irony. Thousands & thousands of ICE cars catch fire during accidents per week ... and if that point is raised? You'd hear, "get over it". But drive a Tesla thru a house at high speed, and through a concrete wall (never mind the drive runs away from it) ... it it catches fire, all hell breaks loose. Never mind the fact that ICE fires happen from other means (leaky fuel lines, etc) ya gotta love sensationalism.
.
I've cited those stats in conversations. As an EVangenlist, I conveniently neglect that in all likelihood those numbers don't take into account that we are comparing nearly new EVs to a much older average population of ICE vehicles, Dick Van Dyke's new Jag notwithstanding.
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:53 pm

From 2008 to 2010, an estimated 194,000 highway
vehicle fires occurred in the United States each year
resulting in an annual average of approximately 300
deaths, 1,250 injuries and $1.1 billion in property loss.


http://www.usfa.fema.gov/statistics/rep ... icles.shtm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Approximately one in seven fires responded to by fire departments across the nation is a highway vehicle fire. This does not include the tens of thousands of fire department responses to highway vehicle accident sites.
Unintentional action (32 percent) was the leading cause of highway vehicle fires.
Eighty-six percent of highway vehicle fires occurred in passenger vehicles.
Sixty-one percent of highway vehicle fires and 35 percent of fatal highway vehicle fires originated in the engine, running gear, or wheel area of the vehicle.
The leading factor contributing to the ignition of highway vehicle fires was mechanical failure (44 percent).
Insulation around electrical wiring (28 percent) and flammable liquids in the engine area (18 percent) were the most common items first ignited in highway vehicle fires.
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Re: Tesla Model S

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:58 pm

Repost from me:

I hope this is a wakeup call for the entire aviation industry (the Boeing 787 battery fires) that these new generation batteries deserve particular handling and safety protocols that didn't exist previously. There are many reasons that Nissan picked the current chemistry battery in the LEAF, and safety was a big one.

For reference, the batteries in my Rav4 and Tesla's have a GIGANTIC uptick in explosiveness.

Charles Whalen, from October 2010 on the GM Volt forum:

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php ... #post43732" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"LiMn2O4 is a safer chemistry [the LEAF battery - Tony] than LiFePO4. When they go into thermal runaway, LiMn2O4 reaches a peak combustion rate of 2.5C/min, while LiFePO4 reaches a peak combustion rate of 3.4C/min. Contrast those to the combustion rates of the batteries that Tesla uses -- in the Roadster, LiCoO2 reaches a peak combustion rate of 360C/min, and in the Model S, LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2 reaches a peak combustion rate of 280C/min..."

"LiCoO2 and LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2 are so unsafe -- the most volatile of all the lithium chemistries, by an order of magnitude of more than 100X (I gave the combustion rates above) over the two safest lithium chemistries, LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 -- that no large, established automaker could afford to take that kind of risk, to use either of those two chemistries (LiCoO2 or LiNi.8Co.15Al.05O2) in a mass-market commercial EV. A large OEM like GM or Ford has just too much at stake and too much to lose to take a risk like that. Only a struggling small start-up like Tesla, which is an extremely risky venture to begin with, on the perilous edge of survival, can afford to take an enormous risk like that."
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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