Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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You just love to draw tangential conclusions from unrelated data, don't you? No one was saying that EVs, CNGs, H2s, or Insert-Vehicles-Here were doomed to failure OR destined for greatness. What we WERE discussing is the difference in operational mindset that H2 vehicles require compared to a hybrid...

AndyH said:
TomT said:
The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...
Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead. ;)
 
So who is going to buy a hydrogen car, when the plan is for 100 fueling stations in the entire state of CA, 10 years from now?

I understand the need for range, but this is seriously lacking.

(some) EVs may (currently) have a range issue. But, they by and large are fueled at home, which is far and away more convenient even than the many THOUSANDS of gasoline stations in the state.

A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries. That is your ONLY way to get around.

Imagine if the only place to get food in California was Der Wienerschnitzel.

Good Grief!

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My prediction: By the time they get those hydrogen vehicles out and get some fueling stations, EV batteries will have progressed to the point that the hydrogen vehicles will be DOA.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/04/05/1422411/study-hobbled-by-high-cost-hydrogen-fuel-cells-will-be-a-modest-3-billion-market-in-2030/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
instead of putting the reformer in the car, just put it next to the tank at this hydrogen station, and then charge a large bank of batteries and then use them to quick charge EV's. Solves some of the demand charge issues at some of the fast charging stations that pull directly from the grid. Should be pretty easy to charge an EV from a large "mother bank" of batteries.
 
This might actually have more of a chance than we think. The problem with EV charging stations is there is no business model to support them, so the only ones we get are public works projects and some eco charity cases. Hydrogen on the other hand could be sold along with other fuels just like diesel is at some stations. Remember from a business standpoint motor fuels do not exist to power vehicles, they exist to drive traffic to convenience stores. Hydrogen could also fill that need.
 
The HV will need the 300 mile range, since it might need a fueling
trip, perhaps 50 miles out, and 50 miles back, to get the "fill-up".

With even light traffic, that means about 2 hours and 5 minutes
to fuel up.

Then, there is the 10 acres of parking for the cars
and trucks waiting in line a few hours for fueling.
Of cource, for $2M one should get two fuelling "pumps",
and a Quickie-Mart?

Perhaps not as convenient as some would like you to think.

Follow the money.
Who gets the $200M contract to build these stations,
and who gets the contract to provide the H-fuel?
 
TomT said:
You just love to draw tangential conclusions from unrelated data, don't you? No one was saying that EVs, CNGs, H2s, or Insert-Vehicles-Here were doomed to failure OR destined for greatness. What we WERE discussing is the difference in operational mindset that H2 vehicles require compared to a hybrid...

AndyH said:
TomT said:
The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...
Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead. ;)
I'm well aware of the topic of the conversation, thanks. And I stand by my position on your posturing: If H2 is destined to fail because it's so different from ICE and/or HEV, then clearly BEVs are also destined to fail for the same reasons.

Nothing personal, Tom, but I think you're off the mark on both.
 
Nubo said:
So who is going to buy a hydrogen car, when the plan is for 100 fueling stations in the entire state of CA, 10 years from now?
Maybe some; maybe none. But what if the '100 fueling stations' metric is wrong?

Nubo said:
... (some) EVs may (currently) have a range issue. But, they by and large are fueled at home, which is far and away more convenient even than the many THOUSANDS of gasoline stations in the state.

A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries.
This isn't entirely correct even today, as there is equipment on the market now for producing, storing, and dispensing H2 at home in various quantities.

Consider a home with PV on the roof, a hydrolyzer and fuel cell in the back yard. The fuel cell is a combined heat and power unit for the house and possibly EV. The hydrolyzer and/or storage can feed the car. This type of system is in use in Japan, and has been in operation in New Jersey since 2006.
http://hydrogenhouseproject.org/articles.html
Japan:
http://odewire.com/60408/hydrogen-in-every-home.html

Here's one supplier that covers the range from household H2 generation/storage for portable devices (Hydrofill, MiniPak) through the portable, vehicle, and stationary markets:
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/

edit..fixed links
 
How much does it cost to install underground gas tanks and dispenser pumps at a regular gas station? It must be in the 100's of thousands, particularly with all the environmental compliance worries (would you even have that with an H2 station?)
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
How much does it cost to install underground gas tanks and dispenser pumps at a regular gas station? It must be in the 100's of thousands, particularly with all the environmental compliance worries (would you even have that with an H2 station?)

The cost to install a normal gas station with 6-8 pumps would be somewhere in the $1-$1.5 million range, not including anything else like a mini-mart or repair shop. Might be hard to believe but all the money is under the asphalt.

Of course, a $1.5M gas station can have a much greater throughput than a CNG/H2 station of comparable cost!

The first CNG station I did had a budget of $1.2M, and that was small... ~2 GPM diesel gallon equivalent in compression capacity and ~240 diesel gallons equivalent storage. Of course you can never fully tap the storage since it works by equalizing pressure with the vehicle, so it can only refuel one large truck or bus every ~20-30 min. Turns out compressing gas to 4000PSI is hard work!

I reckon hydrogen would be about the same provided the H2 gas supply doesn't add an additional bottleneck.
=Smidge=
 
Smidge204 said:
Of course, a $1.5M gas station can have a much greater throughput than a CNG/H2 station of comparable cost!
Still if you can get people using them buying the fuel at a price that offsets the cost of delivery, and the traditional 26% of drivers go into the C-store why wouldn't it be viable? The problem is getting enough station owners to think it's worth the investment. Couldn't the state get more bang for it's buck with a subsidy or private/public partnership of some kind with station owners?
 
AndyH said:
Nubo said:
A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries.
This isn't entirely correct even today, as there is equipment on the market now for producing, storing, and dispensing H2 at home in various quantities.

Consider a home with PV on the roof, a hydrolyzer and fuel cell in the back yard. The fuel cell is a combined heat and power unit for the house and possibly EV. The hydrolyzer and/or storage can feed the car. This type of system is in use in Japan, and has been in operation in New Jersey since 2006.

I'm not opposed to that; Hydrogen as an energy storage medium holds promise -- IF being used to store clean energy. My fear is that the "hydrogen economy" will be largely a way for petro companies to repackage their fossil fuels.

However, what is the capital outlay for a PV system, hydrolyzer, fuel cell, and H2 compression and storage, all sufficient to fuel a vehicle? I don't see this going mainstream quickly, even if it works well and deals with H2 generation losses, density and diffusion properties. It's far cry from plugging in an EV.

Motorists value convenience above all. That's the one strong suit of EVs that can overcome some of the trepidation and "range anxiety". Word of mouth about how convenient they really are to own and drive. I see H2 taking quite some time before it compares to the convenience level of EVs, or conversely the "drive anywhere at a moments notice" siren song of gasoline. Just doesn't seem to hit either note.
 
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