donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:54 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:Driving more slowly can mean a significantly longer travel time on long trips, however. When driving 500 to 700 miles in a day the difference between 55 mph and 75 mph (the speed limit on freeways in most states around here) can be significant
GRA wrote: this past weekend 500+ RT, much of it mountainous and often at night or early in the morning when there's no traffic), I'm well aware of the time differences between 55 and a higher speed on longer trips.
But then a BEV is the wrong tool for the job. Even a 85kWh Tesla. That's a non-argument.

I recently did a cross-european drive, including right through Germany and Austria. In Germany, I aimed, and for the most part achieved, 100 mph. In Austria I stuck to the 80 mph limit. Actual achieved average speed in Germany, over several hours; 60mph, and in Austria; 56mph. Gee. Big deal.

I did a 500 mile run to Hamburg once, several years ago. Target speed was 140mph, typically ~120mph achieved due to 'sluggish' 100 mph traffic. Actual door to door speed was ~73mph. About the fastest real average speed I've seen.

But, just to keep on topic, just because you have to stick to a slow speed to achieve a range doesn't mean you can't achieve the range! I dare say we could hammer a Leaf and be braking and accelerating hard, and get the mileage down to 30. But would you then expect someone to quote the 'worst' figure?

GRA
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:14 pm

donald wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:Driving more slowly can mean a significantly longer travel time on long trips, however. When driving 500 to 700 miles in a day the difference between 55 mph and 75 mph (the speed limit on freeways in most states around here) can be significant
GRA wrote: this past weekend 500+ RT, much of it mountainous and often at night or early in the morning when there's no traffic), I'm well aware of the time differences between 55 and a higher speed on longer trips.
But then a BEV is the wrong tool for the job. Even a 85kWh Tesla. That's a non-argument.
Actually, an 85kWh Tesla would work just fine, given Superchargers in the right areas. Even a 60kWh Tesla would work, with a bit more inconvenience. Which is one reason why I monitor the location of QCs and make recommendations for them in appropriate locations (like Lee Vining and Jamestown for this trip). But it's true that at the moment none of the sub-$40k BEVs would work. We'll have to wait for the Gen III Tesla, or use the closest equivalent now, the Volt (one of which I saw in Lee Vining while we were getting gas).
donald wrote: I recently did a cross-european drive, including right through Germany and Austria. In Germany, I aimed, and for the most part achieved, 100 mph. In Austria I stuck to the 80 mph limit. Actual achieved average speed in Germany, over several hours; 60mph, and in Austria; 56mph. Gee. Big deal.

I did a 500 mile run to Hamburg once, several years ago. Target speed was 140mph, typically ~120mph achieved due to 'sluggish' 100 mph traffic. Actual door to door speed was ~73mph. About the fastest real average speed I've seen.

You should try driving across Nevada on U.S. 50 (aka 'The Loneliest Road in America') some time. Meeting a car an hour isn't unusual at night. Most of the big rural western states are similar, if not that extreme. They don't have German speed limits, but they don't have German traffic either. 85 mph for ca. 400 miles across Nevada on Interstate 80 (75 mph speed limit) is pretty common; BTDT.
donald wrote: But, just to keep on topic, just because you have to stick to a slow speed to achieve a range doesn't mean you can't achieve the range! I dare say we could hammer a Leaf and be braking and accelerating hard, and get the mileage down to 30. But would you then expect someone to quote the 'worst' figure?
I expect people to quote a realistic figure, one that the average person is actually likely to use. One of the members here has the record for longest un-recharged range in a LEAF, at 188 miles IIRR. But he averaged around 18 mph to do it, in Phoenix, no accessories, hot day etc. This has absolutely zero to do with how normal people drive their car.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:10 am

GRA wrote:Actually, an 85kWh Tesla would work just fine, given Superchargers in the right areas. Even a 60kWh Tesla would work, with a bit more inconvenience.
..providing not too many people actually have them.

The problem with EVs is that you need to sell 10,000s of them to get economies of scale and promote improved and developing technologies to bring the price down. But once you have 10,000s of vehicles all running down the same 500 mile route, all needing a charge, that'll be 1,000s of vehicles all needing a charge at the same time.

En-route charging is a short term solution whilst the actual number of BEVs is low. But if the future of BEVs is, say, as high as a 10% penetration then there will simply be too many vehicles to recharge on major routes and EV drivers would be foolhardy to set out on a return route greater than their vehicle range.

GRA wrote:I expect people to quote a realistic figure, one that the average person is actually likely to use. One of the members here has the record for longest un-recharged range in a LEAF, at 188 miles IIRR. But he averaged around 18 mph to do it, in Phoenix, no accessories, hot day etc. This has absolutely zero to do with how normal people drive their car.
You have to be consistent here - either you expect the range YOU want quoted, or you would be happy with an achievable range in reasonable circumstances.

In this case, I would agree that a claim of 120 mile range is egging it on a bit too far, but a 100 mile claim would not be unreasonable.

If you wanna go further in an BEV, drive at 55. Other traffic drives at that speed, so what's unreasonable about it?

If you don't wanna go slower but still demand the quoted ranges, don't drive a BEV!

You just seem to be moaning that the fuel supplies of the world are drying up stopping you from looning it down the highway at breakneck speeds. Awww.. diddums. Remember the 55 limit in the US came in largely as a response to oil supply concerns, which in turn was down to US folks insisting on their right to bumble around in 10 mpg monstrosities. I think in those days they came up with equally disconnected logic, saying they would refuse to drive smaller cars with smaller engines. That sounds as logical as your argument, saying they would refuse to drive slower.

So don't be surprised if lower speed limits kick in again, whilst speed merchants like you want to peg it down the highways at speeds that increase the physical end environmental dangers to everyone else with the only tangible outcome is that you're doubling your fuel consumption.

You should carry on only thinking only of yourself and the essential requirement you have to feel like you are driving fast. What would your life be about, if you could not burn down the highways zooming past slower traffic? That's really important, because other people's safety, security of energy supplies, efficient use of dwindling resources, all of this is insignificant compared with your need to feel like your not driving too slow.

cwerdna
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:07 am

donald wrote: If you wanna go further in an BEV, drive at 55. Other traffic drives at that speed, so what's unreasonable about it?
...
. Remember the 55 limit in the US came in largely as a response to oil supply concerns, which in turn was down to US folks insisting on their right to bumble around in 10 mpg monstrosities.
The 55 mph national speed limit went away long ago.

Re: the bolded part, really?!?!? It's certainly not the case here in Nor Cal and even less so in So Cal. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 35#p324135" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 14#p301714" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Down in So Cal (was last there a year ago), I was doing 70+ mph in a 55 mph zone in the middle lanes and people were still zooming by me.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/speeding-texas ... d=17549839" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; talks about an 85 mph limit in a part of Texas. It also says
Texas already has 80 mph limits on some highways, 75 mph on others, yet the speeds are a sedate 55 to 65 mph on through cities and towns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limi ... ted_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; discusses state speed limits.

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surfingslovak
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:35 am

donald wrote:En-route charging is a short term solution whilst the actual number of BEVs is low. But if the future of BEVs is, say, as high as a 10% penetration then there will simply be too many vehicles to recharge on major routes and EV drivers would be foolhardy to set out on a return route greater than their vehicle range.
Thank you for that astute observation. While charging congestion is becoming a reality in California, I would add that most vehicles do not have the same starting point and destination. Also, by the time BEVs have 10% market share, battery technology will have improved. There are reportedly efforts underway to design a lithium-air chemistry for vehicles with 500 miles of range. Blasphemy, I say.
donald wrote:In this case, I would agree that a claim of 120 mile range is egging it on a bit too far, but a 100 mile claim would not be unreasonable.

If you wanna go further in an BEV, drive at 55. Other traffic drives at that speed, so what's unreasonable about it?

If you don't wanna go slower but still demand the quoted ranges, don't drive a BEV!
That has to be an all-time classic.
Last edited by surfingslovak on Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:41 am

cwerdna wrote:Re: the bolded part, really?!?!? It's certainly not the case here in Nor Cal and even less so in So Cal. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 35#p324135" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 14#p301714" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
'Other traffic', not 'all traffic'. Seeing as trucks have high load tyres only rated to max 60 mph, how fast do they drive?

I'm saying that driving at 18 mph would clearly be unreasonable on a highway AND would certainly sap your arrival time. But driving at 55 is entirely reasonable and a range quoted accordingly is therefore reasonable. You would expect a quoted range to be a reasonably achievable range, not the worst possible. What help is it to quote a range of '30 miles if you drive like a lunatic'!?

It's like arguing that you wouldn't buy an ICE because the EPA figures don't accurately represent the mileage you'd get driving at 80.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:48 am

surfingslovak wrote: That has to be an all-time classic.
In what way? (I can't tell if your #sarc button was engaged!)

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surfingslovak
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:59 am

donald wrote:In what way? (I can't tell if your #sarc button was engaged!)
Donald, most of the points you brought up have been discussed here at some length before. I think most of the regulars get it. Tony even went as far as creating the 100-mile club to demonstrate just how reasonable the 100-mile claim on a single charge was. I trust that you are a member? What pushed the argument over the edge, in my opinion, was the "don't drive a BEV" statement. I don't even know what to respond to that.

cwerdna
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:03 am

donald wrote: It's like arguing that you wouldn't buy an ICE because the EPA figures don't accurately represent the mileage you'd get driving at 80.
They don't, esp. since the (outdated) EPA highway test has an average speed of ~48 mph. At least the EPA has fudged the figures down long ago (early 80s, IIRC) and then added 3 more cycles (starting w/MY 08) to calculate the numbers, which aren't based on actual fuel consumption anyway (see http://priuschat.com/forums/other-cars/ ... mates.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

That said, Consumer Reports does their highway tests at a steady 65 mph (per last page of http://web.archive.org/web/200604010000 ... conomy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and their highway numbers often or usually exceed the EPA highway rating. See http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012 ... ethod=auto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012 ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, then lookup your favorite ICEVs at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Here are some EPA ratings for some Toyotas, for example: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do? ... 5&id=33372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

At 65 mph on level terrain, the Leaf will not go 100 miles on a charge.

BTW, on most highways I drive on, there are very few large trucks and I believe part of it is that they're not allowed on some of them. The rest that weren't big rigs certainly go faster than 55 or 60 mph. I remember a moving van of a shipper I used mentioned he couldn't go on certain hghways.

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donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:12 am

surfingslovak wrote:What pushed the argument over the edge, in my opinion, was the "don't drive a BEV" statement. I don't even know what to respond to that.
Sorry. To clarify, it was directed specifically at GRA who appears to be pouting that BEVs are no use because he won't get the range the manufacturers claim at his desired max-velocity burn down the highway. (And apologies to him if that is not the intent of his posts, but it certainly sounds like it.)

My comments here were not, at all, intended to be directed at those who, as you say, are already well aware of the issued - that is to say, folks who already use EVs. Apologies that this comment could be misread out of context with GRA's apparent position. I was merely repeating what is known, for GRA's benefit.

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