apvbguy
Well-known member
ray you sometimes have some good info to offer but instead of posting snide corrections of a newbies misuse of terms could it be too much to ask that you just offer your wisdom sans snarkiness?planet4ever said:
Recommended charger types via price/quality
- Thread starter ehunter
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
No doubt there are some, such as you and apvbguy who can take advantage of a 30 Amp EVSE. I think what Ray was trying to point out was that most people would derive little benefit from a high power EVSE at home and that newcomers shouldn't automatically assume that their EVSE must be able to fully match the 6 kW charger in the car. Consider that the rationale for the ~40 mile electric range for the Chevy Volt was that most people driver fewer than 40 miles a day.ehunter said:
Also, it has been overlooked in the back-and-forth that we are talking about rather small differences in charging times. The 6 kW charger uses 27.5 Amps at 240 Volts (6.6 kW draw) on a 30 Amp EVSE. The relatively inexpensive EVSE Upgrade allows 20 Amp charging for the 2013 model Nissan EVSE. So, a charge that takes one hour on a 30 or 40 Amp EVSE would take a hour and 22 minutes on the upgraded Nissan EVSE. A two hour charge on a 30 Amp EVSE would take two hours and 44 minutes on an upgraded EVSE. A charge from Low Battery Warning to 80% (on a new battery) would take about two and a half hours on a 30 Amp EVSE and about three and a half hours on an upgraded EVSE. So, we aren't talking about a doubling in charge time or some such thing, as some seem to think.
That difference in time may be significant for you, but is it really a big deal for most people charging at home? I think not, as I've said before. And EVSE Upgrade is substantially cheaper than buying a typical 30 or 40 Amp EVSE; the installation costs figure to be about the same for both.
If you don't buy any of this, fine. One nice thing about this discussion is that anyone perusing it has the information they need to make a decision for their own situation.
I think it was an error in the way the law was written or implemented. And, yes, some of us were both surprised and annoyed. The lesson, I guess, is get your EVSE installed in a different calendar year from when you purchase your EV (doesn't apply to leases, of course). I wish I had known!ehunter said:
ehunter
Active member
It is not that I dont buy it. It was more of a choice of words that could have been better in the explanation describing the situation. I don't think we need to quibble about that now. At any rate, I think we are all on the same page here, literally at least!!!dgpcolorado said:
So it does not seem anything is going to change with 2013 based on the post some guy put up a day back.
This means I am stuck trying to get the tax benefit of the charger in the same year as the car in 2013. At least this is the way I am interpreting things right now.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Do you mean EVSE instead of charger that I bolded? I didn't follow (or care about the tax benefits) but when discussing EVSEs and on-board chargers along w/their different max output/input rates, people really need to get their terminology straight.ehunter said:
For L1 and L2 charging, the charger is on-board (built into) the car (under the hood in the '13, under the hump in the back in '11 and '12 Leafs). The external units w/J1772 handle/connector be they permanently installed (aka "charging stations") or a charging cord set w/a brick, etc. are EVSEs, NOT chargers.
The '11 and '12 Leaf only had a 3.3 kW on-board charger. The '13 has either a 3.3 kw or 6 kW on-board charger, depending on how it's equipped.
planet4ever
Well-known member
My sincere apologies. I had no intention of being snarky. I am a newbie in many areas, and I appreciate being told when I am misusing terminology. I would hope that you and others would as well. I had meant the laughing emoticon to be taken as a sympathetic chuckle, but I now see that you probably took it as me laughing at you. Definitely not my intent, and once again I apologize.apvbguy said:
Ray
cwerdna
Well-known member
^^^
I didn't interpret any snark in planet4ever's reply earlier.
I didn't interpret any snark in planet4ever's reply earlier.
Pipcecil
Well-known member
Many have already listed numerous evse options, but one thing you may want to consider is the build "quality" of the J1772 plug itself. As an owner of both the Volt and the Leaf and relying on public charging frequently, you definintely get a feel for which plugs are better than others. Also, in the end, this is the part of the unit you "work" with the most - all the other features are less used (as long as it meets your amp requirements) as you will be pluging in every day (usually) and sometimes more than once a day!
I have not used all the different EVSEs but I feel like I have a good variety to comment on:
1. Aerovironment - despite the sore pairing many people had with AV and the Leaf, the plugs on these are fantastic. Smooth action, a very noticable "click" when in place and easy to pull out. Build quality is solid
2. Leviton - plug feels similar to the portable LEAF plug in my opinion. A good build and nice clicking and easy release with the button on top, which is the largest I have seen on a J1772.
3. SPX - plug comes with a light (wee), and, if you can get your hands on a Voltec (unfortuantely only 15 amps though) the spiral cord is far superior to having to wrap the cord every day (uggh). Although the pushing in doesn't have the nice click to know you're plugged and pulling out can be a little difficult, the other amenties push this over other ones. Feels like an upgraded Blink with smoother action (but similar in how it "pairs" to the car) and better quality.
4. GE - a mediocre plug, I found it difficult to remove from the car, but it was easy to plug in. Unfortunately, like the SPX it was difficult to tell if the plug was all the way plugged in, but I guess you get use to the "soft docking" of this plug
5. Blink - way bottom last. No one is even close to how bad their plugs are. Low build quality (feels like cheap molded plastic), pluging in is difficult (I feel I have to shove it in sometimes), and unplugging is way worse - I almost feel like I am pulling the sword from the stone sometimes. Definetely not arthritis friendly (wife has RA). Unless you get this free, I wouldn't get it (and some here may argue to not get the free one either!)
I have not used clipper creek or schneider units, so I cannot comment on those or any of the other smaller companies out there. If you are going full bore and not the EVSEupgrade route, I would suggest (from my experience) AV or Leviton.
I have not used all the different EVSEs but I feel like I have a good variety to comment on:
1. Aerovironment - despite the sore pairing many people had with AV and the Leaf, the plugs on these are fantastic. Smooth action, a very noticable "click" when in place and easy to pull out. Build quality is solid
2. Leviton - plug feels similar to the portable LEAF plug in my opinion. A good build and nice clicking and easy release with the button on top, which is the largest I have seen on a J1772.
3. SPX - plug comes with a light (wee), and, if you can get your hands on a Voltec (unfortuantely only 15 amps though) the spiral cord is far superior to having to wrap the cord every day (uggh). Although the pushing in doesn't have the nice click to know you're plugged and pulling out can be a little difficult, the other amenties push this over other ones. Feels like an upgraded Blink with smoother action (but similar in how it "pairs" to the car) and better quality.
4. GE - a mediocre plug, I found it difficult to remove from the car, but it was easy to plug in. Unfortunately, like the SPX it was difficult to tell if the plug was all the way plugged in, but I guess you get use to the "soft docking" of this plug
5. Blink - way bottom last. No one is even close to how bad their plugs are. Low build quality (feels like cheap molded plastic), pluging in is difficult (I feel I have to shove it in sometimes), and unplugging is way worse - I almost feel like I am pulling the sword from the stone sometimes. Definetely not arthritis friendly (wife has RA). Unless you get this free, I wouldn't get it (and some here may argue to not get the free one either!)
I have not used clipper creek or schneider units, so I cannot comment on those or any of the other smaller companies out there. If you are going full bore and not the EVSEupgrade route, I would suggest (from my experience) AV or Leviton.
ehunter
Active member
Great post Pipcecil,
I need to report that Sunday I have ordered the Siemens VersiCharge 30A unit from Homies. Today I got a ship-track email and the unit should be here by Friday. Cost+tax+free ship put the price at $925.41
I just had a local electrician leave my house. A yelper posted he did a great job with their charge station which is why I called him. The guy is verbally quoting me $400 for a 3' run from my breaker for a 40A circuit. He will be following up with a written quote. I had questions for him which he could not answer but I bet you guys can.
1) Is it mandatory to have my installation inspected by my city? If so he says this will add another 400-$500 to the cost. He does not think it is worth it. Would "not" doing it jeopardize any kind of benefit I can receive along the way?
2) Does anything special need to be in place in order for me to get the 9A electrical rate through PG&E? That is, what is the trigger point that tells PG&E I am a 9A candidate? How do I go about it? Is it just "make a simple phone call" after the car is purchased or charge station installed?
I need to report that Sunday I have ordered the Siemens VersiCharge 30A unit from Homies. Today I got a ship-track email and the unit should be here by Friday. Cost+tax+free ship put the price at $925.41
I just had a local electrician leave my house. A yelper posted he did a great job with their charge station which is why I called him. The guy is verbally quoting me $400 for a 3' run from my breaker for a 40A circuit. He will be following up with a written quote. I had questions for him which he could not answer but I bet you guys can.
1) Is it mandatory to have my installation inspected by my city? If so he says this will add another 400-$500 to the cost. He does not think it is worth it. Would "not" doing it jeopardize any kind of benefit I can receive along the way?
2) Does anything special need to be in place in order for me to get the 9A electrical rate through PG&E? That is, what is the trigger point that tells PG&E I am a 9A candidate? How do I go about it? Is it just "make a simple phone call" after the car is purchased or charge station installed?
cwerdna
Well-known member
OTOH, I don't know but he posts by devprius at http://priuschat.com/threads/leviton-wants-1800-to-put-in-evse.104313/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; might help. Don't just read his first post... read all of his posts in that thread.ehunter said:
He apparently lives in your city.
cgaydos
Well-known member
ehunter said:
Thanks for posting the pics. I thought someone else might answer but since they haven't ...
First, the good news is that if a new 240V circuit can be created in your "breaker box" panel then running the cable to where you want the EVSE to be will be relatively low cost. Not as simple as installing a 240V outlet right next to the box but pretty straightforward. Costs will vary a lot by electrician and location, and will depend on the approach taken, but just for the wiring of the outlet from the board I would expect costs in the hundreds, not above a thousand, possibly a lot less. YMMV, but that would be my expecation going in FOR THAT PART of the work.
Second, the not-so-good news is that I can't assess based on the photos whether you can fit in a 240V circuit for an EVSE and comply with codes. You have enough slots available, but your electrical service appears to be of an older vintage (not unusual for your area) and someone who is on sight will need to run the numbers to see if the load-with-EVSE fits within the allowed parameters. Best case, add a few hundred in electrician costs for an additional 240V circuit to what you already have. Worst case, you'll need to upgrade your service and that's when the high number quotes will appear. On the plus side, once you increase your electrical service capacity you can also think about other big electrical items like hot tubs.
smkettner
Well-known member
ehunter said:
Probably. Call the city building department and ask.
The cost is for the electrician's time to make a drawing, go down to submit, pay small fee etc. PITN for him on a small job. You can do this paperwork yourself even after the fact if you like. The actual fee is probably minor. Most cities will accept a hand drawn plan from a homeowner for a simple project. Show up in person and they will guide you. Inspector will come out later and take a look. Don't close or cover anything before the inspection is done such as drywall repair. If the inspector finds an issue you can discuss that with the electrician.
Nubo
Well-known member
dgpcolorado said:
Actually, this is where some very signficant cost differences can come into play. Depending on your breaker panel, electrical service, and other circuits, load calculations could come into play and you could find yourself having to upgrade the breaker panel ($), or even having to upgrade the service line from the utility ($$!). This was my situation and a 20amp circuit was doable while a 30 amp circuit would have triggered a whole lot more work. Since the 2012 LEAF maxed out at 16amps I had no real need for anything faster.
As far as future proofing I think I could live pretty well with 16A going forward. And as others have discussed, ironically the charging rate can become less important as the battery capacity grows.
Nubo
Well-known member
ehunter said:
That depends on your city. The electrician should know this. If he doesn't know the local code I'd find one who does. How is he supposed to meet any local permitting requirements if he doesn't even know whether or not a permit is required? I'd also contact the city to double-check.
In my case it was required. Truthfully I didn't mind and was glad to both hire an electrician and to have it permitted and inspected. This is a circuit that will be carrying a lot of power on a regular basis for hours of continuous use. I'm glad to know it's up to code. And I'd be doubly glad if anything would ever happen requiring an insurance claim.
planet4ever
Well-known member
AFAIK nothing "tells" PG&E that you are a candidate for E-9A. If you own an BEV or PHEV just ask for the rate and they should give it to you. BUT be sure you want it before you do. That has some very high rates for peak time use. Many people hit the 51¢/kWh Tier 3 rate that applies 2 PM to 9 PM weekdays, six months of the year. And once you go on any TOU schedule you have to stay there for at least 12 months (but see exception below).ehunter said:
You should also be aware that the E-9 schedule is going away soon, to be replaced by a new EV schedule. Once you get an E-9 rate you can keep it until the end of 2014, but once the EV schedule is available you can no longer switch to an E-9 schedule. If you are on E-9 you can apparently switch to EV immediately. I haven't analyzed EV-A thoroughly, but it does have a lower peak rate (< 36¢/kWh, which is only "lower" in the sense that it is lower than the 51 or 55¢/kWh rates in E-9A). On the other hand, it extends peak hours to include 3 PM to 7 PM on weekends and holidays. And that peak rate applies even if you are not a heavy user of electricity. (With the current E-9A if you are under 130% of baseline you pay "only" 31 to 33¢/kWh.) All this and more has been argued in detail here: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates
Ray
ehunter
Active member
Thanks for having a look. Last night an electrician I got off Yelp was here, he looked at the Main box, thought about my preferred socket placement 3 feet away, and quoted me $400. THis included a small slot of drywall removal/replacement for my drywall finished garage. Said it was up to me if I wanted to include city inspection or not for another $500. He did not know the criteria when something "had" to be inspected or not so I am still at a loss there. I guess I will call the office today and ask since nobody commented on this part of my question.cgaydos said:
If it means anything my main breaker switch is stamped "90" and I dont use an electric dryer or water heater, both are gas. The next highest draw would be my 55" tv(wattage unk at this time), 2 years old, and my 10 y/o fridge. The electrician did not look at my minor breaker box that runs the house. This has breakers to shut off all the different areas of the house.Should the guy have looked at this thing?cgaydos said:
Nubo
Well-known member
ehunter said:
Get another electrician.
davewill
Well-known member
They did. They said you needed to call the building dept. and ask...but honestly in most places you need a permit and inspection any time you do anything more than a simple repair. IMHO, any "electrician" who is urging you to skip the permit isn't really a professional. Homeowners get scared of the inspection process, thinking it will cost them money, but I think of it as a bit of insurance that the contractor won't cut corners (at least not as easily).ehunter said:
Nubo said:
Without a question. It would be one thing if he was charging a really low rate but he's either playing dumb because he doesn't want his work inspected or does not have the proper licensing as an electrical contractor or something fishy. His price doesn't seem that cheap and I have no idea why he would say it's going to cost more than double to have it permitted/inspected. If they can get the permit issued online it should only take minutes to get the permit and then you can be there and schedule the inspection.
Deleted member 3147
Well-known member
- Joined
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Depends on the city. Here in San Jose, an electrical permit is over $300!smkettner said:
Knowing San Francisco, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more. ehunter
Active member
I feel fortunate my city is $140. I link posted earlier told of a story when a fellow prius owner learned the permit rate was $139 and his electrician was marking up that rate to $575.
The reason for such a high mark up is the electrician has to stop and wait around until the inspector arrives before he can button up his work and finish. Not to mention the trip to the planning office, 2-applications, and the crude drawings that will need to be submitted. He should be getting paid for all this and thus the significant markup.
I think what I will do is have him do the work to the point where the inspector is needed. I will do the paperwork and supervise the inspection and button the drywall back up all for the $140. I just cant stomach paying the premium.
The reason for such a high mark up is the electrician has to stop and wait around until the inspector arrives before he can button up his work and finish. Not to mention the trip to the planning office, 2-applications, and the crude drawings that will need to be submitted. He should be getting paid for all this and thus the significant markup.
I think what I will do is have him do the work to the point where the inspector is needed. I will do the paperwork and supervise the inspection and button the drywall back up all for the $140. I just cant stomach paying the premium.
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