Pls give us START time in "charging timer" - 2013 Leaf S

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davewill said:
BestPal said:
That's very presumptuous of you. Director of facilities at my company offered L1 charging to me and suggested to use it to max and he wants an electric car and he is not happy that he didn't get a free L2 charger approved to be installed like some other companies have (6 of them at Pechanga casino). If anything we might push for a free L2 in the future and set another example for the companies to follow. What did you say I'm ruining? I couldn't quite hear you.
So? That just means you AND the Dir. of Facilities are taking advantage of the company. I'm glad you won't personally run into any problems, but it still seems pretty picayune to try and shave that tiny bit off your home charging.

That's your opinion Mr. Your're entitled to it. I sense some resentment maybe because you don't have such an option. Sorry. Hope your next employer treats you well.
 
I agree it seems like a lot of work for a dime. Its only 2kWh your saving per day. It would be so easy to just put a mechanical timer on the EVSE at home and have it start at midnight. Then you don't have any timers on the car at all. This will simplify the charging at work too. You don't have to press the timer override button every day.
 
BestPal said:
That's your opinion Mr. Your're entitled to it. I sense some resentment maybe because you don't have such an option. Sorry. Hope your next employer treats you well.
My employer treats me very well, and I return the favor, thanks.
 
BestPal said:
HOW easy would it be to just do it all in 1 step: Set up your timer to "START at" 12am (your cheapest TOU start time) and Charge to 70% ????
Umm... Wouldn't it be just as easy to set your END time at 8:30 am (or the end of your TOU time if earlier) and your charge to 70%? Obviously what I am suggesting is that it isn't a START time you feel you need, because that alone would not let you do what you want. What you are really wishing for is a charge percentage. Yes, you did also mention that in your original post, but that isn't what the thread title asks for. I agree that it would be good to have a choice of charging percentage, and so do many others. That isn't available in any LEAF model from any year (to date).

BestPal said:
All can be acheived with an easy software update. Thus my question to you is why don't you understand that we should have that in our ALREADY BUILT IN charging timers?
As dgpcolorado pointed out, this was not something that was arbitrarily removed from existing programming. It is something added to a totally different computer (the one that runs the dash) from the timer implementation in all other LEAF models and years (which is in the computer that runs the Nav and Carwings console). The timers in all models except the S are software/firmware timers implemented by that other computer. That computer is gone from your car, so the timers are gone as well.

Incidentally, while I have the floor, I haven't seen many charging efficiency numbers yet on the 2013, and they could be different from the 2011 and 2012. The 3.3kW charger could also be different from the 6kW charger. But in 2011 and 2012, the net efficiency from wall to battery was about 75% when running at 120v 12A, and about 85% at 240v 16A. The difference was not primarily in the charger itself but in the cooling system, which is stealing electricity from what is coming out of the charger, routing it through the DC/DC converter, and using it at 12v to drive the cooling pump and fan. That usage appears to be at a constant power, regardless of the length or rate of charge. Since a 120v charge takes much longer than a 240v charge, the overhead shows up as much higher when measured against energy transmitted to the battery. I'm not sure, but I think the charger itself was about 90% efficient and the other 5% or 15% was due to the cooling. (The EVSE uses a miniscule amount of power.) That would make sense because 120v 12A charging takes about three times as long as 240v 16A charging.

Ray
 
BestPal said:
HOW easy would it be to just do it all in 1 step:

Set up your timer to "START at" 12am (your cheapest TOU start time) and Charge to 70% ????

How about use the end timer 1+ hour past the TOU stop and set to 80% Going to be close enough.
I understand it could be better. All you can do is learn to use it best you can.
 
KJD said:
The most efficient way to use the power grid is to charge at night when the load is light. Charging during the day just adds to the peak load on the grid. Not a good thing to do.

PV. I charge from the grid during the day when the sun is shining and I don't want to lose $0.033 on the buy / sell spread.

If the PoCo wants my electricity during peak demands, they can damned well pay me the spread.
 
First, to dispel a myth -- crippleware =does= save companies a significant amount of money in maintenance expense, especially when the "low cost" version of the software is the more common in the marketplace. I've been a software engineer for 34 years and I assure you, I could sell a stripped down version of the software with the basic features -- the ones that have been tested the most and for the longest period of time -- for far less than I can sell the latest and greatest with all the bells and whistles, if maintenance expense and development amortization is all that's figured in.

That said, for those of you who purchased a Leaf with crippleware, I'm sorry. You wanted to save some money, and that's the price you (don't) pay.

I'd love to have a fully WiFi enabled Leaf with integrated web interface I can use to enable and disable charging, complete with a positive control interface which turns off charging if the watchdog isn't reset every 10 or 15 minutes. For that matter, throw in a Modbus/TCP interface and I think I'd be in heaven. Oh, and I don't want to pay the $250K it would likely cost Nissan to add that feature. I want it added to my SV the next time I don't go in for an oil change.

Get a 20 amp industrial grade timer and use it.

I'm likely going to add a 20A2P 240 volt contactor connected to a ZigBee enabled SCADA box I manufacture, along with some 0-5V AC transducers on the subpanel feeder and charging receptacle conductors. My cost? Not a lot -- I'm a electrical system monitoring OEM :)
 
tallgirl said:
First, to dispel a myth -- crippleware =does= save companies a significant amount of money in maintenance expense, especially when the "low cost" version of the software is the more common in the marketplace. I've been a software engineer for 34 years and I assure you, I could sell a stripped down version of the software with the basic features -- the ones that have been tested the most and for the longest period of time -- for far less than I can sell the latest and greatest with all the bells and whistles, if maintenance expense and development amortization is all that's figured in.

? eh?
How can writing a new stripped down version of the existing timer UI save money in maintenance expense? Even assuming the cost of creating this new sku was $0 (I'm sure it's not), it still has to be tested and verified... But even if that were free as well, how can supporting two versions of the software be cheaper than supporting one? Especially when that one is by far the most common and has been in use for two years already. I don't get it.
 
tallgirl said:
crippleware
Not crippleware. The base "S" grade LEAF uses a completely different interface than the SV or SL. It does not have a touch screen for inputting the settings. It must make due with the buttons which control the meter display. Additional development was done in order to add the timer function to the existing meter. To add both start and end functions, using an interface that was never intended to be used for complex settings, would have made it over complicated. Simpler is better.
 
kovalb said:
tallgirl said:
crippleware
Not crippleware. The base "S" grade LEAF uses a completely different interface than the SV or SL. It does not have a touch screen for inputting the settings. It must make due with the buttons which control the meter display. Additional development was done in order to add the timer function to the existing meter. To add both start and end functions, using an interface that was never intended to be used for complex settings, would have made it over complicated. Simpler is better.

Aaaah.. ok, I get it now.
 
tallgirl said:
KJD said:
The most efficient way to use the power grid is to charge at night when the load is light. Charging during the day just adds to the peak load on the grid. Not a good thing to do.
PV. I charge from the grid during the day when the sun is shining and I don't want to lose $0.033 on the buy / sell spread.

If the PoCo wants my electricity during peak demands, they can damned well pay me the spread.
You are not alone. I also tend to charge at midday when the sun is shining. However, where I live that's off peak— but I don't have TOU billing—so even the local power co-op is happy.
 
dgpcolorado said:
tallgirl said:
KJD said:
The most efficient way to use the power grid is to charge at night when the load is light. Charging during the day just adds to the peak load on the grid. Not a good thing to do.
PV. I charge from the grid during the day when the sun is shining and I don't want to lose $0.033 on the buy / sell spread.

If the PoCo wants my electricity during peak demands, they can damned well pay me the spread.
You are not alone. I also tend to charge at midday when the sun is shining. However, where I live that's off peak— but I don't have TOU billing—so even the local power co-op is happy.

In the summer I sell my PV to the grid for about $0.32/kWh then buy it back at night to charge the car for about $0.08/kWh.
 
tallgirl said:
First, to dispel a myth -- crippleware =does= save companies a significant amount of money in maintenance expense, especially when the "low cost" version of the software is the more common in the marketplace. I've been a software engineer for 34 years and I assure you, I could sell a stripped down version of the software with the basic features -- the ones that have been tested the most and for the longest period of time -- for far less than I can sell the latest and greatest with all the bells and whistles, if maintenance expense and development amortization is all that's figured in.

...

I would agree that supporting a second version of software including it's development, QC and roll-out would be expensive for Nissan and what I am asking for in this thread is not practical AT THIS POINT - but hey we have a space on this forum for suggestions, so why not ask. Maybe and hopefully future generations of Leaf will have this corrected. But to say that it would be prohibitively expensive for them to include START timer at the time of initial development, knowing that hardware support is already there.. well that's entirely bogus! I'm in IT development too and I can assure you that if the initial request for software development included request for that functionality, it wouldn't take the development team (most likely one person working on that software interface) more time to include that setting in the software than it probably took them to complain to co-workers at the water-cooler how dumb it is NOT to include it.
 
BestPal said:
I would agree that supporting a second version of software including it's development, QC and roll-out would be expensive for Nissan and what I am asking for in this thread is not practical AT THIS POINT - but hey we have a space on this forum for suggestions, so why not ask. Maybe and hopefully future generations of Leaf will have this corrected. But to say that it would be prohibitively expensive for them to include START timer at the time of initial development, knowing that hardware support is already there.. well that's entirely bogus!
OK, let's get one thing clear. The timer support in the SV and SL is based on a touch screen for user input. That's really the only "hardware support" other than a CAN message that can be sent to a switching device to start the charging. That touch screen hardware support is not available in the S. Why don't you try to design a fancy timer with start and stop times and days of the week when all you have to work with for user input is two hardware buttons. I guarantee it will not be acclaimed as user friendly.

Given the two-button restriction I fully agree with the decision Nissan made. This is absolutely a situation for KISS. There is very little additional function in having a start time, and much complication in user interface.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
OK, let's get one thing clear. The timer support in the SV and SL is based on a touch screen for user input. That's really the only "hardware support" other than a CAN message that can be sent to a switching device to start the charging. That touch screen hardware support is not available in the S. Why don't you try to design a fancy timer with start and stop times and days of the week when all you have to work with for user input is two hardware buttons. I guarantee it will not be acclaimed as user friendly.

Given the two-button restriction I fully agree with the decision Nissan made. This is absolutely a situation for KISS. There is very little additional function in having a start time, and much complication in user interface.

Ray

Have you seen the 2013 S interface? If not, please take a look at it. The END timer is easily accessible with just those two buttons - no problem to set it up. I use it every day. What makes you think that duplicating that line in the menu with a start timer is much too complicated? I do not understand your assumptions. And I'm not here to argue with anyone, this is a thread for SUGGESTIONS for Nissan. That's my suggestion that really would help ME with my use of LEAF. Why is it taken as such a big deal that I dared to speak of it? Come on... breath. Please.
 
BestPal said:
Have you seen the 2013 S interface? If not, please take a look at it. The END timer is easily accessible with just those two buttons - no problem to set it up. What makes you think that duplicating that with a start timer is much to complicated. I just don't get it.
I've had this argument on other interfaces so many times it isn't funny. Some people don't mind using just a button or two to skip through lots of options, and others seem to find it almost impossible. I certainly have had my share of trying to talk people through such things over the phone. If I had been designing this I'd have been tempted to do the same thing Nissan did, but I can see why you want it.
 
planet4ever said:
...Given the two-button restriction I fully agree with the decision Nissan made. This is absolutely a situation for KISS. There is very little additional function in having a start time, and much complication in user interface.

Ray
I agree Ray. For the basic S model Nissan was trying to implement KISS. For you, me, BestPal, or most of the other denizens of MNL, learning to program start/stop timers would be no big deal. But remember the huge number of people back in the days of VCRs who left the clock flashing 12:00 because they could never figure out how to set it or how to use the program recording timers. It became a running joke about the people who were technologically unsophisticated.

For those of us who want the more sophisticated timers, the SV and SL models are available. But end-time-only has a lot of advantages and few disadvantages for most people.
 
dgpcolorado said:
I agree Ray. For the basic S model Nissan was trying to implement KISS. For you, me, BestPal, or most of the other denizens of MNL, learning to program start/stop timers would be no big deal. But remember the huge number of people back in the days of VCRs who left the clock flashing 12:00 because they could never figure out how to set it or how to use the program recording timers. It became a running joke about the people who were technologically unsophisticated.

For those of us who want the more sophisticated timers, the SV and SL models are available. But end-time-only has a lot of advantages and few disadvantages for most people.

Excellent, excellent points. But what should I care if it would make my life easier? ;) Doesn't hurt to ask... although as I'm finding out even on this forum the amount of resistance to such a suggestion makes it almost not worth it to ask :D All right, all right, I see your point that for MOST people it might be a little too much. How about an option to enable extra features in the menu IF you want to? KIDDING!!! Stop chewing my flipping head off :D
 
If, as I understand it, Nissan opted to just put one setting (end time) rather than two (start and end) to make the non touch screen interface easier... Why 'end' and not 'start'? Could it be that it's simpler for people to comprehend what time they want it full by? Or.. Is this an acknowledgement that more time at lower SOCs is important (ie only charge right before you need it)...?
 
I'll add another twist into the mix. In the future, when there are millions of EVs (we can hope can't we?), the charging stations will likely meter out the electricity depending upon the health of the grid. Having only a single "end" time allows short (millisecond to minutes) reduction in electricity flow throughout the night without affecting the customer. Thus, charging might start any time from the time you plug in, until your end time. Probably just as easy to have both start & end times as well, I don't know.
 
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