Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Stoaty said:

I am doing the best I can with the information I have. Once I add the miles/kwh I think you will find that my model is a reasonable predictor for most of the cases we have (but I won't know for sure until I set this part up).

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Agreed, and thank you for picking up and running with the concept. The model seems reasonable to me given what we know and what we learned from Nissan so far. Hopefully, we will get more data.

surfingslovak said:

Stoaty said:

I am doing the best I can with the information I have. Once I add the miles/kwh I think you will find that my model is a reasonable predictor for most of the cases we have (but I won't know for sure until I set this part up).

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Agreed, and thank you for picking up and running with the concept. The model seems reasonable to me given what we know and what we learned from Nissan so far. Hopefully, we will get more data.

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+1 - the model appears to be shaping up very nicely and Stoaty is taking all the major factors into consideration. No model will be perfect, but so far it is looking very solid and I appreciate Stoaty's work in this area.

IMO having proper expectations of how capacity will degrade based on one's expected usage is the #1 thing Nissan should do to address "premature" capacity loss. When there is a 3x factor in rate of capacity loss between Seattle and Phoenix but all one gets is an average global rate, this serves as a disservice to both the Phoenix and Seattle potential customers.

The Phoenix customers get shafted with a car that does not perform as expected, while many potential Seattle customers do not buy due to expected capacity loss when in reality their cars will perform much better.

My interview with Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield and John Volcker on Transport Evolved.

Seems like a good day for a little drive through Phoenix with a brand new LEAF. Say, 84 miles or so?

TonyWilliams said:

Seems like a good day for a little drive through Phoenix with a brand new LEAF. Say, 84 miles or so?

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Would you believe 83.2 miles with 21 GIDs (7.5%) remaining. Yes, Virginia, just like we predicted and knew. Didn't even have to tow it.

TonyWilliams said:

TonyWilliams said:

Seems like a good day for a little drive through Phoenix with a brand new LEAF. Say, 84 miles or so?

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Would you believe 83.2 miles with 21 GIDs (7.5%) remaining. Yes, Virginia, just like we predicted and knew. Didn't even have to tow it.

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Obviously, this car did not read or care to follow Yanquentino's range prediction for new Leafs. Care to share more details, should they be available for public consumption?

surfingslovak said:

TonyWilliams said:

TonyWilliams said:

Seems like a good day for a little drive through Phoenix with a brand new LEAF. Say, 84 miles or so?

Click to expand...

Would you believe 83.2 miles with 21 GIDs (7.5%) remaining. Yes, Virginia, just like we predicted and knew. Didn't even have to tow it.

Click to expand...

Obviously, this car did not read or care to follow Yanquentino's range prediction for new Leafs. Care to share more details, should they be available for public consumption?

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We drove a brand new LEAF (Red065) on Nov 4, 2012 in Phoenix with only 138 miles on the odometer (and a recent production date) to run the exact course and parameters in similar weather as the Sept 15, 2012 LEAF range autonomy demonstration. This was a shortcoming of our original test, with no "control" car that was capable of producing 84 miles of range autonomy at 4 miles/kWh.

While I suspect you both Yanquentino and Russ Finley will have any number of exceptions with this, the results didn't surprise me, or those who are intimately affected or impacted by these issues.


83.2 miles driven (with 21 Gids / 7.47% remaining)
88.7 miles calculated range to turtle

Start battery stored energy: 265 Gids / 94.3%
Start pack volts: 393.5 (4.1 per cell average)
Start SOC: 91.4%
Start GOM: 103
Start temperature: 6 bar segments
Economy: 0 miles/kWh (reset)

End of test battery stored energy: 21 Gids / 7.47%

TEST COMPLETE. The car was driven an additional 4 miles to a charger when these readings were recorded:

Gids: 11 / 3.9% remaining
Pack volts: 317.5 (3.3 volt average per cell)
SOC: 4.3%
GOM: "---" (normal for "Very Low Battery")
Battery temperature: 7 bar segments
Economy: 4.3 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA said:

jspearman said:

TonyWilliams said:

I am happy to report that Nissan has agreed to a reimbursement of $2,593.67 for expenses related to this test.

I will receive $965.49.

Nissan has also now bought back 4 of the 12 cars tested.

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Wow! Congratulations. Glad to hear Nissan doing something right in all this. Interesting that 4/12 cars have been bought back, which means 2 besides Scott and Azdre/Opossum. Did the other buybacks also go through the lemon law process?

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being the one of the contenders for "Nissan fanboy of the year" i have to say i am disappointed. Nissan may have done right by alleviating any financial burden for those involved, but to me its more of a surrender. I wanted to see Nissan come out and start pulling packs to analyze them, replacing packs, etc. to find some answers

payoffs dont provide answers.

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The reimbursement is a separate effort from any ultimate answers or remedies, and isn't in lieu of the latter at all. I simply raised it w Jeff as an appropriate "goodwill gesture" regardless of anything else, he agreed, and it was something he was able to execute quickly with Nissan North America.

There's a write up in the OCT/NOV issue of Charged magazine, page 82.

Transport Evolved 126:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoFNZ35qKZk[/youtube]

Thank you for posting these results. I went to the Phoenix Nissan Leaf Town Hall meeting a couple weeks ago and was surprised by how many people were upset with their range/capacity. So, I decided to do a range test of my own. I normally drive 17 miles a day and plug in on a 120v at work to 80% capacity. Very rarely do I use a 240v or charge to 100%. The last couple times when I charged to 100% I noticed I had one extra bar extend past the total range bar, like so:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200264766481139&l=43af72d9dd

I never noticed that I lost a bar, so I assumed it showed 13 out of 12 bars. After I took the picture and counted I realize it's 12 out of 11 bars. Representatives from Nissan said the bars were too pessimistic. 12 out of 11 bars seems a bit overly optimistic to me. When I first got my car, the most I drove without charging was 80 miles with 10 miles left on the indicator and 1 bar remaining (estimated 90 miles range). This was going a route to work that has a speed limit ranging between 30 mph & 45 mph (mostly 30 mph). I took this same route last week and I’m disappointed by the results:

Test Begin Date: 01/10/2013
Test End Date: 01/14/2013
Leaf Year: 2011
Milage at start of test: 11099
Milage at end of test: 11175
Average Economy before test: 4.8 miles/kWh
Average Economy after test: 5 miles/kWh
Max Speed durring test: 45 mph
Average Speed durring test (approximate):37 mph
AC: Off
ECO Mode: On

Bars | Miles Driven | Miles Remaining (as displayed on the dashboard)
12 | 0 | 95
11 | 8.6 | 83
7 | 26.2 | 55
5 | 41 | 39
2 | 55.7 | 19
1 | 60.5 | 11
1 | 71.5 | 5
0 | 75.3 | 4
0 | 75.7 | ---

I doubt I'll be keeping the Leaf after my lease is up, unless a replacement battery isn’t too costly (we’ll find out the battery cost this spring apparently). I'm going to do another range test in the summer and one right before my lease is up. Any suggestions on what other data I need to collect or what other EVs you recommend? I want to stick with an EV if I turn this one in at the end of my lease. I need at least a 50 mile range. At the rate my Leaf is going, by 2016 I'll expect to be able to get at most a 47 mile range, unless my math is off.

I hope Nissan improves their battery cooling methods.

Thanks,
Eddie D.

delphe said:

Average Economy before test: 4.8 miles/kWh
Average Economy after test: 5 miles/kWh

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Overall, awesome job collecting data, however...

There is one huge flaw in your data; you needed to start with "---" for economy before the test by resetting it. We don't have any idea what your economy is with this data.

Secondly, we have no use for the average speed or the "distance to empty" remaining on the dash.

Also, we need the likely temperature of the battery. Can you redo the test with these changes?

Tony,

Thanks for the recommendations. I forgot to mention in my previous post that I did perform a reset before I began the test. I changed it to read...
Average Economy before test: 4.8 miles/kWh and then reset to "---"

I think it would be helpful if I collect the average economy at every data collection point and reset each time.

I felt it important to show both the economy level I was driving at before I began and the "distance to empty" to emphasis the fact that the distance to empty on the dash is inaccurate (at least for the first 30 miles or so) even when you're driving slower then normal. Most Leaf owners already know this, however. So, I guess it wouldn't help you much. The average speed is the best I could do in real world conditions in my case because I don't normally drive on the freeway. The speed definitely impacts range so I have to give something for the speed I drive.

I know the battery temperature gauge isn't very accurate but I could post the number of segments each time I do my data gathering. Is there a better way to get the temperature without purchasing fancy equipment?

Thanks,
Eddie D.

Eddie, your test shows that you are down roughly 20% capacity, as one might expect with 11 capacity bars showing.

At 5.0 mi/kWh a new LEAF will go a bit over 100 miles, but yours looks like it would have done a bit more than 80.