Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

RegGuheert said:

I like that approach much better than the addition of a TMS since with the right chemistry I feel it will prove to be the most reliable solution available for BEVs.

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Likewise. I'm tempted to get into the Fit EV program just to see if the lithium titanate batteries live up to their promise. Also, when you look at the Volt, the MINI E and the ActiveE, they all use or used variants of the lithium manganese chemistry and seem to have better longevity. A TMS does have a benefit, but it does not run all the time, not even in the Volt. The MINI E had a simple fan and the cells in the ActiveE get quite warm, despite its TMS. There something missing here, and I like your electrolyte theory, these manganese cells should not fade as fast as they do in the Leaf.

Of course with the FIT it's lease only so you'll be fairly well protected, but you don't get to keep it if you really like it and the battery does hold up. Unless Honda changes their mind.

For the Wiki:

I am located in Gilbert, AZ. The car was delivered in 6/2011. VIN 4469.

The first bar was lost in early May with about 20,000 miles.
The second bar was lost around July 10th with about 22,700 miles (Called Nissan after I lost the second bar)
The third bar was lost on 8/29 with about 25,725 miles. (Called Nissan on 8/29 right after I lost this bar)

I own the car so I hope Nissan fixes the battery.

lorax said:

For the Wiki:

I am located in Gilbert, AZ. The car was delivered in 6/2011. VIN 4469.

The first bar was lost in early May with about 20,000 miles.
The second bar was lost around July 10th with about 22,700 miles (Called Nissan after I lost the second bar)
The third bar was lost on 8/29 with about 25,725 miles. (Called Nissan on 8/29 right after I lost this bar)

I own the car so I hope Nissan fixes the battery.

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Before we add you, can you verify that you aren't already in the Wiki? I want to make sure we don't have any duplicates (e.g., Kristy Bryant was reported from Facebook, is that you?)

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_three_battery_capacity_bars_.2827.5.25.29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nope. I am new. Also, I usually charge to 80% on most days. I would say 2-3 times a week I charge to 100%. I have never QC'd.

Harsha

lorax said:

Nope. I am new. Also, I usually charge to 80% on most days. I would say 2-3 times a week I charge to 100%. I have never QC'd.

Harsha

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Added to Wiki. The only items we are missing to complete your Wiki entry:

--date of manufacture (on frame by drivers door)
--date of report to Nissan
--case number assigned by Nissan

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your bar loss.

lorax said:

For the Wiki:

I am located in Gilbert, AZ. The car was delivered in 6/2011. VIN 4469.

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It would be nice to put your location (at least the state) in your user info. Not all of us can remember or know. Your delivery date is also currently wrong.

Nissan has clearly stated that as long as you are not parking your car in AMBIENT temperatures above 120 degrees F, there will be no effect by heat on the battery pack. This was stated to me by the Leaf specialist that sold me my Leaf at the dealership ("the batteries are insulated, and heat, even here in the valley, will not effect the life of the battery since the insulation will only allow the battery pack to heat at the most, a few degrees above the current temperature"). A co-worker told me a few days ago that he was looking at Leafs and was told by the salesperson that heat does not effect the battery system here in Phoenix. I'd love to see an undercover reporter test this statement by visiting several dealers in the valley and asking a salesperson specifically about this issue.

As buyers, we were told (and are still being told) by Nissan that these batteries would be OK in Phoenix. I would guess that most owners asked this type of question before purchase just like I did. Please see the following video (especially the last minute) where Nissan discusses what we were all told about the battery system and the heat. I have not seen any days over 120 degrees in Phoenix, so I would conclude that either heat is not the issue (based on statements from Nissan) and there is another defect or that heat is the issue and there is a defect in the battery pack that Nissan did not expect to see. Either way, there is a defect, since Nissan considers temperatures at 110 degress to be "normal" and temperatures in the 130 to 140 degree range to be an issue.

http://youtu.be/DShtvd5jJHQ

RegGuheert said:

opossum said:

Scott: I lost my fourth bar today at 28,190 miles.

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Added to Wiki.

opossum said:

Scott: It gets turned in September 15th.

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At least Scott was leasing and has some recourse. To date Nissan has offered no recourse for owners like opossum and azdre.

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Just curious, what is the rationale that Nissan Financial is accepting in order to cancel these leases for a small fee? Most leases that I've heard of require prohibitive penalties in order to cancel them, which makes sense, since the lessor is receiving back a depreciated asset.

spooka said:

Nissan has clearly stated that as long as you are not parking your car in AMBIENT temperatures above 120 degrees F, there will be no effect by heat on the battery pack. This was stated to me by the Leaf specialist that sold me my Leaf at the dealership ("the batteries are insulated, and heat, even here in the valley, will not effect the life of the battery since the insulation will only allow the battery pack to heat at the most, a few degrees above the current temperature"). A co-worker told me a few days ago that he was looking at Leafs and was told by the salesperson that heat does not effect the battery system here in Phoenix. I'd love to see an undercover reporter test this statement by visiting several dealers in the valley and asking a salesperson specifically about this issue.

As buyers, we were told (and are still being told) by Nissan that these batteries would be OK in Phoenix. I would guess that most owners asked this type of question before purchase just like I did. Please see the following video (especially the last minute) where Nissan discusses what we were all told about the battery system and the heat. I have not seen any days over 120 degrees in Phoenix, so I would conclude that either heat is not the issue (based on statements from Nissan) and there is another defect or that heat is the issue and there is a defect in the battery pack that Nissan did not expect to see. Either way, there is a defect, since Nissan considers temperatures at 110 degress to be "normal" and temperatures in the 130 to 140 degree range to be an issue.

http://youtu.be/DShtvd5jJHQ

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It's a shame that they continue to sell the car here until they can figure out what's happening. I wrote our salesperson at Avondale Nissan, Trudy Varin, and told her about the problems and sent her a link to this thread, and she's the Leaf specialist there. I hope she is at least giving people a head's up about potential problems and encouraging people to lease the car, at the very least. She had been told that only five or six cars were affected, but I educated her on the number we have here at MNL.

Opossum, I am here in Phoenix, also. Will you please keep us updated if you lose
or gain any capacity bars in the coming months. Also, does any one have
document or link to the "spec table from the Nissan bulletin?", Opossum is
referring to?

Lastly does anybody elses LEAFs get warm (toasty) while charging, like Opossums
does when Fast Charging 440-volt or even 220-volt or 110-volt charging?

Thanks.

opossum said:

mksE55 said:

Are you in Contact with your dealer, I would state this is direct proof your battery is shot and will not make the 5 year 20% or 10 yr 30% rule.

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We've had our car at a dealership or the Nissan test facility roughly 5 times now. Each trip was useless (to us, the owners). We're now pursuing other options that have more potential benefit. We're about 2 steps away from resorting to driving the car through the front door of Mark Perry's office at full speed.

mksE55 said:

I still dont know how you guys can drive in normal traffic and get 5.1mile/Kwhr. On my best slow day extra careful I was barely able to squeak out 4.6. I normally run 3.9.

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Precooling in the morning while plugged in. Minimal or no A/C on the way to work, provided I leave early enough and can get away with it. If necessary, I keep the A/C fan setting low (1 or 2 bars). My commutes are about 75% flat freeway. 58mph in the slow lane, provided I'm not pissing off lots of people. Slow down a bit on inclines, then speed back up on the declines. Timing lights and minimal braking on the city streets. Eco mode only. Today's first 50 miles did include a 1-way trek down SR-51, which gave me a handful of downhill miles. Otherwise, I would have probably been in the high 4s per kWhr.

Volusiano said:

There's something wrong with what you're saying. I think you meant to say SOC was 37% remaining, 63% used.

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My bad. I transposed the two numbers, but the math part was correct. It must have been the heat being given off as my batteries were being fast-charged that put me in an altered mental state while I typed that on my phone.

Volusiano said:

But the fact that your calculation comes out to 73.4% battery capacity is very close to your 3 bar loss (15+6.25+6.25)=27.5%. So that does seem to imply that the L3 SOC by Blink is more accurate than the SOC bars by the LEAF.

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It's also right in line with the range test we did before our car went to the Casa Grande facility, where our mileage to 1 SOC bar remaining was roughly 25-30% lower than the spec table from the Nissan bulletin.

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jspearman said:

spooka said:

<snip>
As buyers, we were told (and are still being told) by Nissan that these batteries would be OK in Phoenix. I would guess that most owners asked this type of question before purchase just like I did. Please see the following video (especially the last minute) where Nissan discusses what we were all told about the battery system and the heat. <snip>

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It's a shame that they continue to sell the car here until they can figure out what's happening. I wrote our salesperson at Avondale Nissan, Trudy Varin, and told her about the problems and sent her a link to this thread, and she's the Leaf specialist there. I hope she is at least giving people a head's up about potential problems and encouraging people to lease the car, at the very least. She had been told that only five or six cars were affected, but I educated her on the number we have here at MNL.

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I think they "have" to continue sell them the same way as before in these hot climates otherwise they would be "admitting" that there is a problem. And I mean this from a legal perspective. Certainly lawyers on both sides understand this. The trouble is with telling the sales people about this thread/wiki is that they can no longer claim they didn't know or only knew it was a few isolated cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Disadvantages

Check this out re: "high ambient temperature"...
Note: High charge levels and elevated temperatures (whether from charging or ambient air) hasten capacity loss.[48] J. Brodd, Chem 2004">Winter & Brodd 2004, p. 4258
I emailed Mark Perry, Nissan North America's Product Planning and Advanced Technology Director [email protected] on AUGUST 15, 2012 and he read my email regarding my LEAF's Battery Capacity Loss. I actually spoke to Mark Perry, Nissan North America's Product Planning and Advanced Technology Director later in AUGUST 2012. We talked for approximately 3-4 minutes. He didn't seem so interested in determining the root cause of the LEAF's Battery Capacity Loss issue. Mark made the comment particular to my vehicle with 3 capacity bars lost that (paraphrasing)'...well that battery must not of been cared for very good…'
When I heard that I explained it was many other vehicles as well, that had similar Battery Capacity loss issues in Arizona, California, Texas, etc...then he went into his spiel that Nissan just started testing affected LEAF cars and that they are trying to learn the drivers habits with the state of the batteries with making a determination if there is any problem.
Prior to this I also received a call back from Representative Peter Haynes at Nissan Executive Relations, due to I left a message for Mark the previous day. Peter Haynes told me his spiel, stating he's not a Nissan LEAF expert, but to call (877) NO GAS EV (or 877-664-2738), which I have already did. I called him back a few days later and asked for Mark Perry and he said "I don't even know who Mark Perry is". I hung up and called him again the next day and left him a voicemail message stating why are you lying about knowing Mark Perry. Peter Haynes left me a voicemail saying he did say he didn’t know Mark Perry and gets a lot of calls for Mark Perry, and lies to prevent future calls.
Lastly, I called Avondale Nissan this past week and told the Service Advisor I wanted warranty work done to replace the batteries, since 3 bar capacity loss on a car with 8,000 mile is hardly 'GRADUAL'...I told them to get authorization from Nissan Corporate Headquarters...I got a message back from a different advisor, stating his spiel...they are investigating and to call (877) NO GAS EV (or 877-664-2738),...He then goes on to say the "Dealerships are out of the loop.” I thanked him for wasting my time.
These guys from Corporate to the Dealerships are all smoke and mirrors... We may as well as start saving towards a new $13,000.00 battery pack. I don't think this 'Investigation' is nor will be going anywhere. Call Nissan Corporate at 615-725-1000 and ask for Mark Perry and complain. Email Mark Perry at [email protected] and complain. Call Peter Haynes-Nissan Executive Relations Representative at 615-725-7447 and complain.

At this point, I don't believe that Nissan has a whole lot of credibility left... It's almost a certainty that my next EV will not be a Nissan/Infiniti...

dsh said:

Check this out...

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dsh said:

Opossum, I am here in Phoenix, also. Will you please keep us updated if you lose or gain any capacity bars in the coming months.

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I do what I can to keep everyone updated on the capacity loss with our car and various others in the Phoenix area.

dsh said:

Also, does any one have document or link to the "spec table from the Nissan bulletin?", Opossum is referring to?

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You can download it from http://www.NissanHelp.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Search for NTB11-076a. Or send me a message with your email address and I can send it to you.

dsh said:

Lastly does anybody elses LEAFs get warm (toasty) while charging, like Opossums does when Fast Charging 440-volt or even 220-volt or 110-volt charging?

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It's inevitable. Physics and a lack of a TMS are keeping our batteries from staying cool during charging, and especially during fast charging.

dsh, check out your forum inbox in a few minutes. If you didn't already know, there's a lawyer in the valley who has been researching this capacity loss issue, has several Leaf owners lined up for a lawsuit, and is almost ready to open a can of whoop@ss on Nissan. I'll send you the details.

Will do on all fronts...thanks for the share.

opossum said:

dsh said:

Opossum, I am here in Phoenix, also. Will you please keep us updated if you lose or gain any capacity bars in the coming months.

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I do what I can to keep everyone updated on the capacity loss with our car and various others in the Phoenix area.

dsh said:

Also, does any one have document or link to the "spec table from the Nissan bulletin?", Opossum is referring to?

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You can download it from http://www.NissanHelp.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Search for NTB11-076a. Or send me a message with your email address and I can send it to you.

dsh said:

Lastly does anybody elses LEAFs get warm (toasty) while charging, like Opossums does when Fast Charging 440-volt or even 220-volt or 110-volt charging?

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It's inevitable. Physics and a lack of a TMS are keeping our batteries from staying cool during charging, and especially during fast charging.

dsh, check out your forum inbox in a few minutes. If you didn't already know, there's a lawyer in the valley who has been researching this capacity loss issue, has several Leaf owners lined up for a lawsuit, and is almost ready to open a can of whoop@ss on Nissan. I'll send you the details.

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dsh said:

I called him back a few days later and asked for Mark Perry and he said "I don't even know who Mark Perry is". I hung up and called him again the next day and left him a voicemail message stating why are you lying about knowing Mark Perry. Peter Haynes left me a voicemail saying he did say he didn’t know Mark Perry and gets a lot of calls for Mark Perry, and lies to prevent future calls.

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He actually admitted lying about it???

He said he has to say it, as he gets so many misdrected calls asking for Mark Perry...some corporate culture, eh?

Stoaty said:

dsh said:

I called him back a few days later and asked for Mark Perry and he said "I don't even know who Mark Perry is". I hung up and called him again the next day and left him a voicemail message stating why are you lying about knowing Mark Perry. Peter Haynes left me a voicemail saying he did say he didn’t know Mark Perry and gets a lot of calls for Mark Perry, and lies to prevent future calls.

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He actually admitted lying about it???

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dsh said:

I actually spoke to Mark Perry, Nissan North America's Product Planning and Advanced Technology Director.... He didn't seem so interested in determining the root cause of the LEAF's Battery Capacity Loss issue. Mark made the comment particular to my vehicle with 3 capacity bars lost that (paraphrasing)'...well that battery must not of been cared for very good… they are trying to learn the drivers habits with the state of the batteries with making a determination if there is any problem.

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Since it is absolutely obvious that Nissan is going to blame the consumer with bad operating habits and still isn't sure if there's a problem, I think if I were directly affected, I'd start planning for the worst. Remember, at least one guy who is claiming to represent LEAF owners as the "San Francisco BayLEAFs official liaison to Nissan North America" talks nothing but contempt about these issues. You don't have support there either.

We may as well as start saving towards a new $13,000.00 battery pack.

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I would sell the car before I would reward Nissan with $13,000 of my money to fix their mistake from before the first car was built. Then I'd buy a different EV with TMS, or plug-in like a Volt (also with TMS). In Phoenix, I'd make sure it was plugged in anytime it was parked in the heat, or it had a really full battery to run the TMS.

"Dealerships are out of the loop.” I thanked him for wasting my time.

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Here's how we get them in the loop. Send a certified letter, return receipt, to every single dealer in Arizona, specifically documenting the "problem". A letter based on my summary of battery issues and/or the wiki page showing every single reported case, and where they are mostly from. I recommend calling each dealer first in a professional manner and ask for their legal address for legal notices. Reference the person you talked to in your letter.

The dealer will then "know" about the issues as they continue to sell the car to unsuspecting consumers. Continueing to sell these cars with no intention of repairing or mitigating the failures will do nothing but set back EV's further, when you make an upset customer who will "never" buy another EV after "that" experience. Elon Musk foresaw this in 2009, when he called the LEAF battery "primitive".

dsh said:

He said he has to say it, as he gets so many misdirected calls asking for Mark Perry...some corporate culture, eh?

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He never thought of giving them Mark Perry's real number? Simpler, quicker, honest.