edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:06 am

jspearman wrote:
Stoaty wrote:Azknauer just reported the loss of second capacity bar to me in a PM. Loss was at approx 15 months, 10300 miles. Wiki updated.

PS I guess the loss of capacity bars is "slowing". ;)
Slowing...funny. My GOM just dropped to 76 miles today on 100% charge (it's been 84-86), and the last time I had a precipitous drop like that, it was followed a few days later by a bar loss, so I'll likely be reporting number 2 any day now. Our range is total crap at this point and it makes any weekend trip a nail-biter or it must be meticulously planned to incorporate a charge, or two. Those charges are also stressful, since almost all our charging stations are on ridiculously hot pavement, and the past week has brought back the continuous 7 temp bars. I'm anxiously waiting for Nissan's response, but unless it's satisfactory I will be on board for a class-action suit.
A few weeks ago I posted:
...There is seems to be a trend of lower bar loss reports, since a June maximum. this is despite the publicity campaign currently being waged to characterize LEAF batteries as “defective”, which would likely result in a higher proportion of bar losses being reported, and the increasing trend of listing less-reliable second-party reports of bar loss.

Also note, that the seasonal lag after the Summer solstice means that daily average temperatures have now declined, For example, the last day of 107 F average in phoenix was on July 13.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/phoeni" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... her/346935

While temperatures have decreased a few degrees, it is still much hotter everywhere than it was in mid June, when capacity bar disappearance seems to have been occurring more frequently. So if battery capacity bars actually represent a fixed percentage of permanent capacity loss, due to degradation, I believe that the report rate should still be increasing, rather than decreasing.

If this trend continues, it will, IMO, be further evidence that both battery bars and lower gid counts reflect factors other than just battery degradation...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... start=1890" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, so far I'd say that any change in the rate of new reported bar losses is not clear. Depending on the period of time sample you select, probably about the same rate of bar one losses, maybe an increasing rate of bar two losses, no bar three losses for five weeks.

Not much of a trend yet, IMO.

This might be because the assumption I made a few weeks ago, that we could depend on temperatures to track long term averages and continue to decline, was clearly unwarranted.

I think that most of the USA "hot" climate LEAFs, are still experiencing very high temperatures, quite a bit above the long term averages.

You can enter your city at the link below, and enter the nearest city at the top, to see your local monthly reports of recent temperatures, in comparison with historical averages.

Redding CA is my closest reported site.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/reddin ... her/327134" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll check again, in a few weeks, and post here again, or start a new thread, if the powers that be close this one...
no condition is permanent

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vrwl
Posts: 846
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Leaf Number: 8597
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:49 am

opossum PM'd me some information about one of the off-forum AZ people who was on our 1-Bar and 2-Bar lists who has now lost a 3rd bar. The 3rd Bar wiki table has been updated.
Vicki
2011 Silver SL-Mfg 8/11-Purch 6/12
34000 miles

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
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Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:40 am

Yep, and he was one of the "10 people I know." I also heard today from one of the last few who had not yet lost a bar. He has now lost a bar (I asked him for info for the wiki). So my updated list...

(updated #1 & #9)...

1. 3 bars
2. 2 bars
3. 2 bars
4. 1 bar
5. 1 bar
6. 1 bar
7. 1 bar (then sold car)
8. on the cusp of losing 1 bar
9. 1 bar
10. No known capacity loss. 80% charges, owned 1 year, only 5000 miles driven

So...

80% already lost 1 to 3 bars
10% just about lost 1 bar
10% no known loss w/ 80% charges in 1yr/5k

Background: There are 10 people (including my wife) I knew before they purchased Leafs (or met immediately after they purchased their Leafs). I did not meet any of these people *because* they began complaining of capacity/range issues. I simply met them before or immediately after they purchased Leafs. And now, 9 to 15 months later, let's check in on those 10 cars (all here in Phoenix) and see whether they have lost any capacity...
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

mark1313
Posts: 144
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Delivery Date: 20 May 2011
Leaf Number: 001024
Location: Phoenix Arizona.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:03 pm

Wow you found a Leaf with 12 capacity bars showing :shock:
dusty2050 wrote:Boy I really feel sorry for the unsupecting new owners who purchase a Leaf from a dealer. Either Nissan is not telling the dealers that the cars cannot stand the heat or they do not care!!! Here is a perfect example of a local Oklahoma dealership. They have 6 brand new Leafs on their lot not only baking in the 100 plus degrees in Oklahoma but with 11 or more bars of battery charge!!!! The Leafs could sit on the lot for weeks totally going against the owners manual as well!!!


Image


The buyer of those cars will not realise it but could loose a capacity bar within only a few months depending how long they sit in the sun and have that very high state of charge....

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:06 pm

just completed first "warm weather charge" on the LEAF and registered lowest ever GID count of 268. started charge at 11 am. finished 2:50. Sun is out, day is warm. thermometer measures 31C or about 88F.

previous low GID count EVER is 274. average 275-276. so guessing this is temporary temperature adjusted degradation or could be the start of the same rapid degradation that everyone has
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

chennu
Posts: 26
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Leaf Number: 4145
Location: Portland; OR

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:14 pm

I did the same experiment last week. 100% charge had a Gidcount of 264,265 and 266 on three days.. charge is at night (temperature in 60s). I am in Portland Oregon. 9650 miles and 1year 2 months old car.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15635
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:18 pm

chennu wrote:I did the same experiment last week. 100% charge had a Gidcount of 264,265 and 266 on three days.. charge is at night (temperature in 60s). I am in Portland Oregon. 9650 miles and 1year 2 months old car.

you charged at night?? oh oh. i charged in the middle of the afternoon in full Sun. after all, it does not get THAT hot here normally. my charge time was from 11 AM to 2:50 PM
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:28 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Perhaps this thread should be closed and new ones should be started to discuss/report on various aspects?
There's so much chatter here, that you passed right over my post above !!!! I started a thread as a "page 2" to discuss issues specifically pertaining to the battery degradation and range/autonomy issues:

Click here for the Summary
Actually, before I posted, I did glance at the 1st post of your other thread.

At the time, I wasn't sure how that thread would differ from this one. What's the criteria that someone should use to post there vs. here? Is everyone else clear why a post should go here vs. the other thread?

The lemon law stuff you posted is semi-interesting, but it might be a tough battle given that Nissan doesn't warrant capacity at all and Nissan seems to indicate the degradation is "normal". Usually (always?), when lemon laws are involved, it's related to warranty repairs.
Last edited by cwerdna on Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

edatoakrun
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:30 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:just completed first "warm weather charge" on the LEAF and registered lowest ever GID count of 268. started charge at 11 am. finished 2:50. Sun is out, day is warm. thermometer measures 31C or about 88F.

previous low GID count EVER is 274. average 275-276. so guessing this is temporary temperature adjusted degradation or could be the start of the same rapid degradation that everyone has
Or, if TickTock's conclusion that gid/Wh values vary is correct, it could be that "everyone" watching their gid counts, might have far less reduction (either temporary or permanent) of battery capacity than belief in a constant ~80 Wh gid value would indicate, and concluding that a dropping gid count occurring with warmer temperatures indicates "rapid degradation", may be erroneous.
TickTock

...although 80Wh may be the nominal target for 1 gid, it can be off by as much as 10%. Just something to keep in mind if you are counting gids...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=9689" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
no condition is permanent

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surfingslovak
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:41 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Or, if TickTock's conclusion that gid/Wh values vary is correct, it could be that "everyone" watching their gid counts, might have far less reduction (either temporary or permanent) of battery capacity than belief in a constant ~80 Wh gid value would indicate, and concluding that a dropping gid count occurring with warmer temperatures indicates "rapid degradation", may be erroneous.
Right, and I never missed an opportunity to point out that not all the Gid count loss we see is permanent degradation. The data from Casa Grande seems to support that notion.

However, I would not go as far as saying that the observed "rapid degradation" is erroneous. Even 15%, a number that reportedly came from Nissan, after one year is very significant. It's nearly unheard of in comparable lithium-ion EVs, at least in my experience. This figure would be OK as an outlier, but not if a significant number of owners experienced it.

As to the perceived or overstated loss of range: the last Gid count on my vehicle was down 5% and the range was down 8 to 10%. I determined the range through three carefully executed tests from 100% all the way to turtle. According to the temperature profiling we discussed recently, I would expect the battery to age at about half or little less than half the speed owners Phoenix are experiencing in my local climate. I believe that the numbers I'm observing are consistent with that. Image

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